Alison Beyea, ACLU of Maine

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Allison Ba is the executive director of the ACLU of Maine, where she oversees the organization's legal, legislative, public education and development activities. Thanks for coming in today.

Alison Beyea:

Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I know we're especially fortunate because you have a lot going on right now.

Alison Beyea:

It is an exceptionally busy time, unfortunately,

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

so I guess I want to talk about that. But I know that as an attorney you could have chosen any number of different things to get into and you chose this. Why? What's your background?

Alison Beyea:

Well, I you know, there's so many things that go into creating who we become as people. And it's hard to not look back to sort of the early years to think about what, what motivated us, what impressions we had. And I was fortunate enough to grow up in a family of activists, of people who were committed to social justice and environmental justice. And so in some ways I'm not sure it was a choice so much as a destiny to sort of follow in my parents footsteps. I think, you know, the family joke is that it was sort of there was no once I came home in third grade complaining about how the boys wouldn't let me play football during recess and then planning my critique to the administration that that was sort of a good sign that probably I was going to be set for a path of, of activism.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, that's interesting because other people might have come home in third grade and just been like, well, can't play football, Go do something else. And instead it's like, well, how am I going to, how am I going to work on this problem. How am I going to affect change?

Alison Beyea:

Yeah. And I was very lucky to be surrounded by people, both in my many people at the school and my family, who really taught me that as a woman, I had a right to all of the same advantages that other people were being offered. And so that was something that was supported, that I had a place in our society, I had a place in our community, and I should be equally participating in that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Define for me, if you would, civil liberties.

Alison Beyea:

So civil liberties and civil rights is really very much about the relationship between us as individuals and our government. And this country was founded on some wonderful values, aspirational mostly because we weren't really living many of those values at the time the Constitution was created. But they're really sort of a set of guidelines about how we should be treated as individual human beings by our government. And civil liberties is particularly related to our freedom to express ourselves, our freedom to not be confined by our government, and our freedom to really participate in our community.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So when you talk about our country being founded on a nice set of guidelines for civil liberties, it doesn't mean that our country was actually engaging in these.

Alison Beyea:

It really is something that I myself have to find sort of a new language to talk about, because I think many of us who grew up with. I mean, whatever obstacles I faced, they were nothing compared to what many Americans face today. But I think it's important that we say that in the Constitution. It is a rule book to a certain extent, but even though it was founded on those basic values of equality, we were not honoring that. And it's taken generations. And clearly we're not done. We are not done with a quest for people being valued for who they are, no matter what the color of their skin, no matter what religion they practice or no religion. And so I like to think of our work at the ACLU as trying to help us get closer to those values every day.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It's a big thing. I mean, that's an enormous aspiration. If it were easy, it would have happened a few hundred years ago, right?

Alison Beyea:

Absolutely. There's so many ways that our system perpetuates itself and power structures perpetuate itself, and it's not easy. I mean, I often say that I am fundamentally, I could not do this work if I didn't believe in the power of community, of connection between individuals and the power for us to evolve. I mean, despite what seem to be many setbacks right now, we really have made progress in some areas much more rapidly than others. And some of those Thorny issues related to race do not seem to be sort of moving forward with the speed that other issues have. But we are, we are making progress. And I, even back in the 70s, I was able to play football, and that was progress from my mother's generation. So we are making incremental change. And I do believe that each of us can play a role in getting us closer to those founding ideals of the Constitution.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So over time, as part of the aclu, have you seen a shift from the types of things that were being focused upon and are being focused upon now?

Alison Beyea:

I think that in some ways in Maine over the last six or seven years, we had been confronting some of the very difficult negative issues that now the country is facing. We have seen an increase in, I guess what I'd call wedge issues, issues that relate to typically underserved communities, whether that's low income people, whether that's racial minorities, whether that's immigrant status. And so I have seen increasingly, and we have seen in our office a real polarization on those issues. And that is manifesting itself in the public discourse, how people talk to each other. And it's definitely representing itself in our state legislature, which I think many people would agree is more divided than it's ever been.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How did we get here? How did we get to a place of being so polarized?

Alison Beyea:

Oh, I wish I had an answer to that question. I think that some of it comes from the issues we were just talking about. There are some deeply entrenched systemic systems of oppression that we as a community have not found figured out how to deconstruct. And many people are invested in maintaining those structures. And so I think some people believe that these issues have always been there and we just weren't talking about them. And in a time of more rapid media, more ability for us to sort of just talk to ourselves and not talk to other people, we are increasingly saying things that are displaying such hostility. So I think there's probably many, many, many reasons that we got here. I think the result is really incredibly destructive to so many people's lives. And we see that in our office every day.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, give me some examples of that. What are some of the things that people are coming to you needing help with?

Alison Beyea:

So much of what we do at the ACLU is at a sort of larger policy level. We fight for things in the legislature, we file lawsuits to try to have a larger impact, but it's really the stories of the clients who we help that is what sort of keeps us feeling inspired to do our work. Last year we were able to highlight an issue that many people refer to as debtors prison. And what it is about is how when low income people get caught in a cycle in the court system and actually stay locked up in jail because they literally cannot afford to pay their bail or pay their fine, not because they're a threat to the community, but because they simply don't have enough money to get out. And so this has been referred to as debtors prison. The Supreme Court has found it to be unconstitutional. And so it's a practice that has been creeping back into the American justice system. So we've been looking to do that and we've made a lot of progress and I'm very pleased with the people who are partnering with us. But we actually were able to get a young woman who we actually had a court clerk call us and say, there's this woman and she can't get out of jail. And she had been in there for 10 months and we were able to go before the court, take her case and she was able to go home. And you know, it's just those real lives, she had been sitting there writing letters and trying to get someone to pay attention, and by some amount of luck she would get to us and we were able to help her. So it's those actual stories of individual lives that help us stay motivated to try to work on the larger issues. Another issue that really just happened is about a week and a half ago, the ACLU released a report named We Belong Here. And it's based on 10 months of interviews with students and educators around the state about what it's like to. To be an immigrant kiddo, here in Maine. And the stories are horrific. The way our young people who come from different countries have different color skin, pray to different people, or different gods are treated is really a wake up call to those of us who don't experience it on every day. And so hearing these students, particularly now, they're reaching out to us and saying, I can't believe you told our story. Thank you. Like, no one believed that this was happening. And so when they call us and they talk to us and they say we want to do something, and that's just, you know, that's just makes every hour of work worth it that we can help tell stories just like you do and bring that to people around me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, give me examples of some of the things that kids are experiencing.

Alison Beyea:

So there are. Let me start by saying one of the things we did in this report was also identifying all of the unique and exciting programs that are happening in schools. Schools are finding ways to try to combat these problems and we really wanted to highlight those because we want other schools to feel inspired. It's not just this task that they'll never be able to accomplish, but you really can make a difference in kids lives. But what we're hearing about is sort of systemic and repeated bullying. Girls having their hijab yanked at when they walk through the halls. There's a story of a young girl who made the varsity soccer team in high school and was so proud. And they got to the finals and the referee would not let her play unless she took off her headscarf, which is illegal, unconstitutional. But yet no one knew to speak up for her. And the ref may not have understood himself. And so she had to make a choice between her religion and participating in this goal that she had worked so long for. Kids shouldn't have to make those choices. There are persistent name calling, scrawling of racial epithets, not just to immigrants and black students, but to Latino students, any sort of immigrant you might see. So it is, and let me say most educators would say this is not new. And it certainly extends to the LGBT community. Really any group that is not that has traditionally been targeted. Schools are not able to protect the students in the way that the law requires.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Is it made more difficult now because there are so many other extenuating circumstances. It used to be students go to school, come home. We have telephones, we don't have computers, we don't have social media, we don't have all these other layers which kind of interconnect people. Is it harder now for schools to get a handle on some of this stuff?

Alison Beyea:

So I started my career representing kids and I worked with schools a lot back in the 90s and early 2000s, and there is no doubt that schools are being asked to do 10 times more with 10 times less. And then you add technology challenges. And I think it is really daunting what they are being asked to do. So yes, I think it is harder. I also think it is harder when our political landscape is full of statements by elected officials that are racially charged and really, I think give permission for statements to be made that schools are trying to figure out how to protect their environment so that all kids have the ability to have access to an education and feel safe to learn.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So it's one of the things that I hear often is this idea of free speech. And so people will use it on both sides that I should be able to say whatever I want because I have the right of free speech. And if free speech turns into something or turns into something that prevents somebody from accessing something that they have a right to, like an education, that seems to be the sticking point is that you can't just have people running around saying whatever they feel like, because even if they have the right to do it, they're still impacting other people.

Alison Beyea:

You're absolutely right. And I think it's important that people remember that the First Amendment applies to government. So this is only when the government is telling one person that they can't say speak and another person they can speak. So it's really about a government individual relationship. In the context of schools, though, you're absolutely right. There comes a time when speech can create such a hostile environment that it impacts other people's rights to access an education. And so the First Amendment is not, is not a defense to allowing speech that is denying other people their rights sort of just to go rampantly. And I think, you know, it's very popular to just say, oh, I have a First Amendment right to say that you have a right to not have the government restrict you in certain contexts. But there's many ways that government has reasonable ability to restrict that. So I think that's what the schools are wrestling with. But our laws in Maine are pretty clear that the school does have the ability to make sure, you know, to sort of limit what's happening in the school classroom to make sure people can actually learn.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

One of the things I wonder about as the mother of a 21 year old daughter and a 24 year old son and a 16 year old daughter is, is it because we've come so far in so many ways that maybe there's this sense that we could just sit back and relax and not have to work too much harder in areas like maybe gender equality. I'm not sure how you feel about this. I know you also have children and you've worked in the educational field. So tell me what you think.

Alison Beyea:

It's really interesting thinking about women's rights in relation to other rights and you know, is our work done? I mean, I would say no. If you look at even the who's in leadership in Maine, you see few. You know, even in nonprofits, you don't see as many women leaders. I always find it's interesting. If you look at the nonprofits that the largest nonprofits in Maine, so the largest budgets, those are all run by men. So I think we still have a long way to go at making sure that women are also in leadership roles. And I think it's also. That's women's rights are an example where we feel that it is so much better than it was, that there's sometimes a sense of that we've done enough. I guess the thing that strikes me most right now and reminds me that women's justice issues are as important as ever is what we're seeing in the reproductive health care arena. We are seeing. I mean, my mother has worked. I followed in her footsteps. She's worked in women's rights. She was working on access to abortion in the 70s. And I'm with many women of her age on a daily basis, and they're like, how did this happen? That we are not only fighting for access to reproductive care and the ability to decide whether we have children and when we have children, we're fighting for access to birth control. I mean, the very things that allow women to fully participate in the society are being stripped away. And so I think that that is the most obvious place where you can see that actually those rights are very much under assault as much as on racial justice and immigration rights. Women are equally targeted right now, and we need to continue to really fight for those.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I think for many people that I've spoken with, there's this sense of shock that something that we have finally achieved that we've finally taken for granted, even the ability to get birth control pills and have them paid for by insurance to go to backslide and backslide so dramatically, I think it tells us just how shaky that might have been in the first place.

Alison Beyea:

It's a great point, and I think there's been a lot. I mean, so one of the things that is so inspiring right now is to see the level of engagement and activism happening in Maine, happening all over the country. People are re engaging in their political process, and I think engaging at a local level, which is, I think, where real change will happen. So I think that that is really inspiring. I think you're absolutely right. It was always shaky. And I think that's probably a fair critique of people like me, of people whose rights were protected and sort of was not paying attention to enough, that for many groups, it never actually came there. And so I think this is a really important moment for progressive leaders to recognize that sometimes we have stopped fighting for movements once we've gotten what we've wanted. And we need to really make sure that everyone is having a seat at the table, everybody is included. And in the long run, if we build that movement, that everyone is. Is equally valued and equally part of it and that we don't give away rights for some groups just to get them for others. I think we will build a lasting change that we want to see so that our daughters, great granddaughters, sort of, this will be not a thing anymore.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So do these seats at the table include people that don't necessarily think the way that we do?

Alison Beyea:

What a great question. And I don't know that I have a great answer to that. I think that, I do think that the way we've become estranged from each other is part of the problem. I think we all like to see the narrative that we like to see. I think the sound bite culture doesn't help this. People are looking for just a phrase as opposed to a deep conversation. I think for all of our American bravado, we actually aren't very thick skinned and I think we have trouble having difficult conversations. So I think, yes, I do think that those conversations need to happen. When I think about in what order I think some of it is, there's still enough work to be done even within the community that is sort of trying to advocate for more equality and more freedom. That group needs to do a little more work with itself to make sure everyone's at that table before maybe we tackle those issues. But I think you're absolutely right to focus on it, that we've let ourselves off the hook at the Thanksgiving table or in those just moments when you're out with someone and you're talking to them and they say something and you're like, ooh, ooh, do I say something? Do I talk about why that hurts? Or do I just pretend it didn't happen? And I think we have to do a lot more talking about what hurts.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I had a conversation the other day about somebody that I am doing a profile on for Old Port magazine. And one of the things that came up was that if you aren't liberal enough, then you can be as progressive and liberal as almost anybody around you. But if you're not liberal enough, then you actually, you don't even get a seat at that table. So when you're saying like, even working within our own group, that's what comes up for me is this idea that only some people have the right to, to talk. And those are the people that have what are believed to be the right answers way over on one side. And this, and this bothers me as somebody that has, I. I have tried to be thoughtful about my life. You know, I have tried to be thoughtful about my children and my patients and the way that I Live. And so this silencing that I have felt myself doing, because I'm not, I don't have. I don't have as far leaning of you as some people. It actually makes me feel like I'm more in step with maybe people on the other side. But I don't want to get to the place where I am that angry, that I am that polarized. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Alison Beyea:

Well, I mean, the solution for me, because I promise you at the aclu, there's always people left of me and there's always people right of me. I mean, we are a. As an organization, we confuse people constantly because we take positions on both sides. What has been really resonating for me in the last few years, as we've grown, we've become a much larger staff. We've been able to hire a lot more young people. And it is a constant lesson in humility. I mean, I am just amazed at how often I see the world through the world that I grew up in and really paying attention to how defensive I get in that situation. And I'm very fortunate because when I am called out, it is called out in a very supportive and engaged, thoughtful process. And I think the problem is it's not always done that way. But I do think that for me, I have softened a lot more into that experience of humility, which is not. Does not come easily to me of sort of I might have something more to learn. And trying to not see it as a critique that I don't have the cred to do it that, you know, which I may not. I haven't experienced many of the things that are happening, but just trying to be open to, to the listening. And I am considered to be a fairly on the progressive end. So I may not feel it the same way someone else would feel it, but I am finding that more conversations slowing down, which we don't really give ourselves time to do as working professionals, makes that easier to sort of go deep on those conversations, which can get really hard. I mean, you know, we've dedicated our lives to trying to make things better. And it's really hard when someone says, you know what? You could still do it better. So for what it's worth, I am finding that to be the most helpful tool in these situations.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I agree. I enjoy watching my daughter, who has a gender studies and history concentration in her education. I enjoy watching her have conversations with people of varying inclinations because when she started she had learned some things and she's very intelligent and she was more Stringent. And over time, she has learned that in order to actually keep a conversation going, she can't be as stringent and strident and focused on only her own views. She actually has to do that. And then when she does that, I've seen other people who are having a conversation with her open up about their own experiences and be more open to her point of view. So really, it. I think it can be useful on both sides that people, if they are. If they're able to listen, if they're able to not be defensive, as you've said, it can really get you much further in mutual understanding.

Alison Beyea:

Yeah. And I. I would imagine in your medical work, I mean, it's hard because we are hardwired to go into fight or flight. And so, you know, when someone is saying something, I think it really is hard. Not. And I don't claim to not. You know, my first reaction isn't always gentle, but, you know, I do think ultimately, when you soften into that, that is when the relationships deepen and you really can understand what someone is saying. But that's not what the. To your earlier point, that's not what our modern culture expects. It's the sound bite, it's the tweet, it's the line that will get attention. None of this encourages deeper understanding.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And there are some times, honestly, where you have to stand up and you have to use your voice, and you can't be softening and you can't be. I mean, none of us wants to engage in conflict, but sometimes conflict is required. It just is a necessity.

Alison Beyea:

Absolutely. And I think, really, what we're trying to make sure, at least at the aclu, is that those people who need to be able to have their voices heard have the power and the support to speak.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, that is a perfect way to end this conversation, which I think is very interesting and very appropriate, given what's going on in the world these days. I hope that people will take the time to learn more about what the ACLU is doing, because obviously, we're just touching the very surface of some of the things that you are working on right now. I've been speaking with Allison Billet, who is the executive Director at the ACLU of Maine, where she oversees the organization's legal, legislative, public education and development activities.