Designing Anew #293

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah, so it took about a year to get to that trust, but with that came that conversation that was really conducted with love. And love is always the key vulnerability, isn't it?

Cabot Lyman:

And people are traveling up from Portland to see what's going on. Musicians are coming up there to be part of the whole musical thing in Strand. And of course I like the movies they show, so it's great. So Rockland's changed a lot.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to Love Maine radio show number 293, Designing Anew, airing for the first time on Sunday, April 30, 2017. Maine is home to many who enjoy transforming things in unexpected ways. Today we speak with Dr. George Smith, an education innovator who founded the Institute for Doctoral Studies in the Visual Arts, headquartered in Portland, Maine in 2006. We also discussed the recently opened Rockland Boutique Hotel 250 Main with its co creator Cabot Lyman, owner of Lyman Morse Boat Building, and with manager Ruth Goodbury Starr. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

it is my pleasure to have with me today George Smith, who founded the Institute for Doctoral Studies in the Visual Arts in 2006. Headquartered in Portland, Maine, the institute is the first and only school in the world to offer a PhD in philosophy, especially designed for visual artists, curators and creative Scholars. Thanks so much for coming in.

Dr. George Smith:

Thank you, Lisa, for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So I'm really kind of fascinated by the fact that you are so dedicated to the visual arts that you actually are putting out there something that nobody else is doing. Why would you do that?

Dr. George Smith:

Well, in Maine, you'll do anything for a job, as we all know, that

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

can be said is true. Yes.

Dr. George Smith:

But aside from that, Lisa, I started an MFA program at the Maine College of art that was unusual, if not unique in the country, insofar as it was kind of a 50, 50 between theory and practice or philosophy and studio study. And the students really rocketed out of that experience into zones that they hadn't really anticipated. And people got very excited about it, and they were writing for me dissertations. And I said, you know, you really ought to go turn this into a PhD because it's absolutely phenomenal. And they'd come back and say, there's no place in America, in fact, there's no place in the world where an artist can go get a PhD in Philosophy without having to start all over again. So when I got fired from the Maine College of art, I said to myself, this would be a perfect time to try out that idea. And I did.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, well, okay, talk to me about that firing thing, because I think anybody who's been fired and I have lost a job before, it's kind of painful. And there's some amount of time where you spend thinking to yourself, how do I go back and remake something that existed? Rather than how do I go forward and make something that hasn't existed yet?

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah, yeah. It was a great experience for me. It was very painful. And yet, like all painful experiences, it may have been one of the best in my life. Certainly it forced on me a lot of reflection. It was just one of those things. It was a fit situation. We had a new president that wanted to do something with the MFA program that I didn't see eye to eye on. And it was her prerogative to find others to lead that charge and that I could come to understand. But it did force me into a necessity that I had never anticipated. And that is what will I make of my life? I was 55 years old. I was a white guy. Getting another job in academia was about nil. So what did I really want to do? And I knew that I couldn't give up on my life as a scholar, as an academic, and as someone that was deeply invested in visual culture, visual art. So I decided that the thing to do would be to try to get this School off the ground. And one of the things that I committed myself to was coming up with an idea that would reflect what I would do if I were going to do a Ph.D. again, what I would want as a student, what I want to experience, what I want to get out of it, what I came up with, I absolutely vowed that I would not change. If someone said, we'll let you go forward, but you have to change this or you have to get rid of that, or you have to do this instead of that, I wouldn't go forward. And, you know, luck would have it, we went all the way with no changes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, tell me about that. I mean, explore a little bit your own background, your own PhD, your own kind of progression academically, and then how you came to this new place.

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah, yeah. Well, life is. We learn more from life than we certainly do from academic study. And that was my experience in graduate school. I went to Brown and I studied literature there. And as you probably know, risd, one of the nation's great art schools, is next to Brown, but it's down the hill. And everybody at Brown teaches you to look down at artists because the Brown people are intellectuals and the artists work with their hands. And that was never said. And I never knew that I recognized that until I wound up at the Maine College of Art. And I said to myself, oh, these people aren't going to like me, and they're not going to be able to do what I teach because they're not trained in intellectual rigor. They're trained in something completely different. And what I discovered was that that wasn't true at all. In fact, they got theory much faster than the students at Brown that I was teaching. They were much more interested in it. Their relationship to it was authentic and not. Well, can I bring this phrase from El tucerra to a cocktail party and impress somebody? It was really dedicated interest. And what came out of their experience was tremendously impressive. It was changing the way they saw the world because they were seers. And to me, two things came out of that. One, I did not recognize that I myself was prejudiced. I only discovered that when I discovered it in my attitude, in my surprise. Oh, these people are so smart. I didn't think they would be. And then secondly, I got from them the demonstration of what it means to change. And that maybe freed me to the experience that. That I had when I was fired. Okay, now it's time to change.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Okay, so you were in literature, and now you're doing visual arts. So where was the. Where's the turn off there.

Dr. George Smith:

You asked very pointed, insightful questions. Lisa, you're a great listener. Well, when I was at Brown, because I was interested in art before I got there, I actually wrote a dissertation on the relationship between art and literature. Literature. And the dissertation committee. Back in those days, people were very conservative, as you probably know, especially at the Ivy League schools. And the dissertation committee rejected my dissertation proposal on the grounds that it was an interdisciplinary dissertation. One had never been done at Brown. And the people in the English department worried that with that I would never get a job and that would reflect badly on the department. Well, it turns out they were right. I pushed through and got the dissertation approved and got it done, but no English department would hire me. They said, well, you know, you know half about English and half about art. We need somebody that knows all about English because that's what we teach you. That was the general message. Nowadays, of course, you can't get a job unless you do interdisciplinary studies. But anyhow, I was really tough, hard up for a job, and I wound up teaching a little art history course at Westbrook College and then wound up teaching a theory course at the Maine College of art. It was the first theory course they'd ever offered. And it just so happened that the following year their dean left for another job at the Maryland Institute, and they were desperate for an interim dean. They begged me to do an. I needed more income. So I took it. And the next thing I knew, I was stuck in that job for 12 years.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

An interim dean for 12 years.

Dr. George Smith:

Well, I became the permanent dean after the first year. They did a search, and then they made the grave mistake of selecting me as the final candidate.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It sounds like you're very committed to the things that you believe in. You didn't back down when the people at Brown said, no, we don't want you doing this this way. And you didn't back down when the people at Mecca said, well, we need you to fit better. So talk to me a little bit about that. It would be easy enough because many of us do make compromises in our job lives, for example, to just say, okay, fine, I'll be who you want me to be. But it sounds like that's not the direction you took.

Dr. George Smith:

That's a great question, too. I grew up in a family of eight kids with a single mother. And we were all raised to stick by our convictions. And I think most of us have, if not all of us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And where were you in the lineup?

Dr. George Smith:

Second oldest.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So I'm imagining having a single mother. You probably had a lot of responsibility as well.

Dr. George Smith:

I did. She and I worked in a restaurant together. I mowed lawns, I took care of the young kids. I had a lot going on. Plus I played sports and had every excuse to do poorly at school.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And somehow you made it into Brown.

Dr. George Smith:

Well, that was, you know, the luck of accident, I suppose.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I'm guessing it's probably not as much luck as hard work just. Just reading between the lines. But did it feel once you got to this place where you had this great education in front of you, did it almost feel not as hard because what you had been doing as the second oldest in a family of nine with a single mother was so challenging to begin with?

Dr. George Smith:

Well, that's a great question too, you know, when you come from a family of that size with those economic dynamics. By the way, we grew up in a middle class neighborhood and we were poor kids because of that consequence. So I knew a lot about difference and I knew a lot about struggle. But when you grow up in a family that size with one breadwinner and a couple of kids trying to bring in some extra bucks, there's a lot of chaos. And doing well at school really is not a promising prospect. So I wasn't a great student. In fact, I loved to skip school. But I knew that I had a fascination with literature and I knew that I had a fascination with visual culture and visual art. My mother was a painter. My father, who was a good guy, was very much interested in literature. So even though we were poor, we were raised to take a deep, authentic, substantial interest in the world, especially through literature and visual art and culture. So when I got to Brown, I actually was deeply intimidated because everybody that was there with me had gone to Choate and had gone to Exeter and then had gone to Yale and Harvard, and I had more or less bumbled my way through a state school education. So I really had no idea what I was doing there. And I spent the first year trying to prove to my professors that I knew an awful lot and that's why I was there. And finally, at the end of the first year, one of them took me aside and said, how long have you been in graduate education? I said, oh, a year? He said, how long do you think I've been in graduate? I said, I don't know, 25, 30 years. He said, yeah, the other people on the committee that admitted you had about the same amount of experience. So that's almost a century of experience against your one year. Why don't you stop trying to tell me what you knew and start learning what I have to give you, and we'll get along really well. He turned out to be my dissertation director and my mentor.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

There's a certain amount of stark honesty in that comment to you.

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah, he said it in a beautiful way. I'm not conveying to you the sentiment that it came with because it was really done in a loving way.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Do you think that when one is that age, that that is often the approach that. I'm just. I think about my own children, and both of my older ones who are now in their early 20s, went through a stage where they knew a lot more than me and needed to kind of work it out. And I'm not saying that I. That they're wrong. They probably do know a lot more than me.

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But do you think that's a developmental stage?

Dr. George Smith:

Well, in my case it wasn't. Although, of course, I was certainly an example of retarded development. But I was in my 30s by that time, so it really was a matter of feeling less than and being afraid to show what I didn't know. So I wasn't really prepared to learn. And it was that first year that actually taught me the lesson that I did not know.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It takes a lot of vulnerability to be able to admit that, because you have to trust that the people around you are going to accept you for whatever level of knowledge that you have and be willing to work with you.

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah. So it took about a year to get to that trust. But with that came that conversation that was really conducted with love. And love is always the key to vulnerability, isn't it?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I think so, yeah. What is the philosophy of visual arts? When you talk about theory? Give me some information. I mean, I am. I am someone who has been trained in science. I have some background in literature, and all I know about art is what I have picked up through working with art collector Main and the artists and the people I've interviewed. So I don't. I don't even know where to start on this idea.

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah, I don't think very many philosophers know where to start on the idea either. Quite frankly. I think we're all pretty much confused about that and struggle in the dark to figure it out. But what I would say there is. Certainly there has been a history of ideas that has accumulated over centuries and thousands of years in the struggle to understand the human spirit in relation to the world. Traditionally, artists have been relocated to a side role in that human aspiration as visually representing how those ideas might be translated into images that could then be symbolically interpreted by human beings in such a way that it could be a benefit to their lives. My feeling has always been that artists are themselves, by definition, philosophers, and that because we deny them that kind of training, A, it limits the kind of work that they were thinking that they can represent, and B, it also denies us of the advantages that come from that kind of thinking, because we don't pay attention to them as thinkers, we only pay attention to them as makers, going all the way back to the experience that I had at Brown. So for me, it's not so much what is philosophy? The real question is what can philosophy become? And my feeling is that philosophers today are mostly trained in logic, which is really the elemental foundation of science. And what we need to do is to reinfuse that kind of thinking with creative, dynamic thinking that is intrinsic to the creative imagination of the artist philosopher. So what we, shall we say, push at IDSVA is what we call new philosophy. And new philosophy is the kind of philosophy that is made by the artist philosopher that may be a person who's trained in philosophy that also thinks as the artist, or it may be the artist who's been trained in philosophy and thinks in that way too. So IDSPA is the only school in the world that trains people to think as artists, philosophers. And we think that that's so important because of where we are in the world today. We are confused. We are absolutely lost. And our politicians don't know the way, our economists don't know the way, our sociologists and academics don't know the way. And in my view, philosophers have lost the way. The hope is that with a new way of seeing, we can find a way. And to that end, we bring philosophers from around the world to join in with the artists that come to IDSPA to think about how do you think? And to practice new ways of thinking.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It seems as though there would be an applicability to lots of different areas. I mean, we're so confused right now about issues of diversity and gender, and we're trying to see these issues through the same lens that we've always seen them through. But what you're describing is, okay, let's change our thinking, which would then enable us to change our lens, which might actually move us a little bit further than we're heading now.

Dr. George Smith:

I wish I could say it so well, but that's not to say that we're not interested in questions of gender and race and. And all of the other issues that immediately dog our lives today, because we are and we work on those questions, but again, we try to work on them from the kind of point of view that you're describing so eloquently. And I struggle so hard to say as clearly

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

as a student with the idsva, what types of things would one learn? I mean, what are the tools that you use? Do you use literature, do you use art? Do you use both? Is it, I mean, how does the learning take place?

Dr. George Smith:

Yeah, that's again a good question. All of those things. And then more. For one thing, our students travel around the world. They go to the places in the world where historically art and ideas have come together in such an intersection that it's changed the future of civilization, civilization and history. And they travel in such a way that they actually retrace the evolution of the relationship between art and idea. So they start in Rome and studied classical philosophy and obviously architecture, culture, visual representation, and certainly aspects of aesthetics. From there they spend about two weeks in a feudal castle, Tuscany. So they go from the classical to the medieval and feudal. And while they're in this castle, they study contemporary philosophy. And we fly in some of the great philosophers from around the world to work with them while they're there. And meanwhile they're also looking at the relationship between classical and feudal culture because now they're on a feudal agrarian estate. It's about 1100 acre farm, it's a beautiful place. And while they're there, they study in Siena, which is a medieval banking city, in Florence, which is Renaissance, of course. And then from there they go to either Venice or Paris, Venice as a baroque city, but also the Venice Biennale, which is the most contemporary moment in world art. And while they're there, they work with the curators and artists that are representing their nations at Venice. Or they go to Paris, where they study Venice, modernism, Paris, the city of lights, French impressive, Impressionism, post Impressionism and so forth and so on, but also French post structuralism, Deleuze and Guattari and Sartre and all that sort of thing. Second year they go to start in Berlin and they study the Neoclassical, Kant, Hegel, all those people we don't like to hear about, and then to Heidegger, and then from there they go to Athens and go all the way back to the pre Socratic thinking and look at that through the, the lens of Nietzsche. So it's that kind of experiential work that they do in the summertime that allows them to grasp the actual concrete relationship between the history of ideas and visual representation. I should say that as they're traveling around the world like that, they go to about 60 of the world's preeminent museums. So in addition to the street life and the architecture and, and the music and the fashions and the living philosophers and artists that they work with are also studying the history of visual representation that way. In the fall and the spring they do live seminars by video conference. So there they are all spread around the world with faculty that are spread around the world. They come together and they study the regular syllabus of seminar analysis during those live video conferences. By the way, not only do we have a philosopher or an artist teaching the course, but also we have people from around the world drop in by live video. So if we're reading a book by a philosopher who lives in London, she can drop in and say, well, we've got a few questions for you about how this text fits in with Derrida and blah, blah, blah. So it's pretty exciting.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How many students do you have?

Dr. George Smith:

We have about 75 students, which is very small for a school and very, very big for a humanities PhD program. Today we have about 45 students in the three year course of study and then another 30 or so out writing dissertations.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What do you see the future of this institution being?

Dr. George Smith:

The future that I'm hoping for is an endowed institution that will live in perpetuity along the lines that it's so far developed. It's been tremendously effective. When I was in graduate school, I don't know about you, but my primary job was to complain about how lousy the program was and how ineffectual the faculty was and how other faculty, other schools were so much better. We get letters and emails and telephone calls from our students all the time saying, I can't thank you enough for this experience. And most of them are themselves professors. Maybe half to two thirds of our students are faculty in studio departments at American universities and colleges. So they're educators themselves and they so appreciate what we've come up with.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how about you in your own life?

Dr. George Smith:

Couldn't be better.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So no future thoughts. You're happy exactly where you are right now.

Dr. George Smith:

I have to be bigger to feel any better. But again, if I had one big next dream come true would be to endow the institution to me. That's the real key. We compete against some of the great institutions in the world who fund their students completely and then give them usually some kind of a fellowship. And our students have to pay tuition because we're a small institution and we don't have the undergraduate Tuition to depend on, on to fund. So my next project, actually, now that we've got the school accredited and really flying, is to focus on endowment.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It's really interesting to me that you are literally building this from the ground up. And in Maine, we have this tremendous history of institutions doing exactly that because we've talked to the College of the Atlantic, we've talked to University Unity College, and of course, the other schools, which are now a couple hundred years old.

Dr. George Smith:

Sure.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But it seems like people don't necessarily feel held back by the fact that something educational doesn't currently exist. Does this in any way feel comforting to you as you're moving through this process?

Dr. George Smith:

Well, you know, I have to say that from the very beginning, I was convinced that what I'm doing could only happen in the state of Maine. I am an academic, so I just know that you can't start a school. You can't start a program like this within an existing school. If you tried to do it at Harvard or even USM, it would take 10 years to just get through all the different committees. And then it would have to go to the provost for funding and then to the board of trustees. It would be 15 years and then eventually be shot down. I'm sure of it. And therefore, my first major decision in developing this program was to say it has to be a standalone. And people said, well, that means you're going to have to get a bill passed through the Maine legislature and signed into law by the governor. Are you sure you want to do that? Much easier than going through the academic bureaucratic process. Much easier. In fact, it was a relative piece of cake from the day that we decided to do this to the day we delivered. Our first lecture at Spinocchio Castle in Tuscany was eight months. Eight months. We started with no money and no students, but I have to give a lot of credit to the state of Maine for that. It was an amazing process. We had to speak before the Education Committee of the state legislature. We had to speak before the Board of Education. And these people were farmers and fishermen and gardeners and truck drivers and school teachers. And we'd go in and say, oh, my God, they're not going to even want to talk to us. And they were amazing, amazing, amazing. And then we had to speak before the Committee on Education at the legislature. And again, what an amazing experience. Glenn Cummings, who is now the president of usm, was the speaker of the House at the time. He took this on as a personal aspiration, got it through both houses, and then before the Governor with a unanimous minus one vote combined between the House and the Senate, unanimous minus one. If I had tried to do this in Massachusetts, where I'm from, we would not be, I would not be talking about it today.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, given the amount of effort and energy you have put into this, and given the amount of success you have had, I can only imagine that your next quest to get this to be fully endowed will be successful. So I hope people who are listening will find out more about the Institute for Doctoral Studies in the Visual Arts. I've been speaking with George Smith, who's an internationally recognized scholar and has long been a leader and innovator in American education and the founder of this wonderful school. I really appreciate your coming in and talking to me today.

Dr. George Smith:

Thank you for your hospitality list, Lisa. Really wonderful to talk with you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

to speak with Cabot Lyman and Ruth Woodbury Star. Cabot Lyman is the owner of Lyman Morris Boat Building. He moved to Maine and started the Boat Building Company in 1978. In 2016, he opened 250 Main Hotel, a boutique hotel in Rockland. Ruth Woodbury Starr, the Main native, is general manager of the hotel. It's really great to have you both here.

Cabot Lyman:

Thank you.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Thanks for having us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So 250main is really a unique hotel for the state of Maine. When I think of, I think of the press Hotel and 250 Maine as being the only ones of their sort, I believe in the state. I haven't stayed everywhere, obviously, but what was your inspiration for this?

Cabot Lyman:

Well, the, yeah, the idea was to have something that was going along with what was happening in Portland, which is getting more, I don't know, as I say, Brooklyn chic kind of atmosphere and get some quite modern and what people are doing today and in our own touches and we had the, you know, we were building it from scratch, so we had the advantage of not trying to fix up an old building. So it was probably easier for us to do it than other places. So, yeah, I think it came out pretty well. It was a combination of architect and interior designer and a lot of us tweaking. So it worked pretty well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, there are a lot of interesting touches, I think the iPads that are replacing all of the. All of the papers that normally one gets in the hotel and the lounge downstairs stairs that offers some breakfast but also has drinks later in the day. And the artwork, I mean, the artwork is really great. It's all curated. Is that right, Ruth?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

It is. It's a cooperative of most of the galleries right in our mid coast area, mostly in Rockland. And all of the art is for sale, you know, through the Gallerist and proceeds going to the artist. So it's a way to support that part of our community. And it changes out quarterly. So it's like sort of like a gallery itself.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

There's also enough space, the way that the ceilings are done between floors and with the big fireplace that there are very big pieces and very unique pieces too. It's not your. It's not your average hotel art.

Cabot Lyman:

That was part of the design and part of the real thing was to have real art rather than the prints that you see in most hotels. This works out really well for everybody. So, yeah, it's fun. It's fun to have all that. What's been fun for me is that we've got a lot of children of good friends of mine that are actually exhibiting the hotel, which I absolutely love. So it's great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It really couldn't be in a better location either. I mean, Rockland has some places to stay, but this is right on Main street, but not. And close, but it's not in the middle so that you can't get through with your car. And you've got great views of the waterfront and the sunrise. I mean, the deck is wonderful. The top floors are so expansive, but really there isn't a bad view from any room.

Cabot Lyman:

No, you're right. It worked out really well. It was a hard lot because the way it's angled, but the angle ended up turning out to be a. They're really a real plus. So it's great. Yeah, and that's why my sons got me into this. So they saw the lot for sale and so that's what we went for.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It seems as though someone who has spent more time doing boat building stuff moving Into a hotel. That might have been a kind of a. Interesting experience.

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah. I think the comment is maybe I should just shoot me. But not really. It's hotels worked out great, but it was a bit of a slow time for the boat building industry. And so we started to wander towards a little bit how to keep our guys busy and a little diversification and a little investment in the future. So that's.

Dr. George Smith:

We.

Cabot Lyman:

We did it, but it's worked out great. I'm really pleased with the building. So it's great. And we got Mygus running it and they've done a great job. And that's what a lot of like the iPads and so forth. That comes from the Mygus touch. So. And Mygus, of course, is the outfit that's running it who Ruth works with.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

But we still work very closely with the Lyman Morrison, for example, my facilities director, is straight from the boatyard. He can fix anything, build anything. He can 3d print a soap dish or a shower pan. So we're never in disrepair, that's for sure. Handy guys over from the boatyard.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, actually that's really cool, the idea that you can do 3D printing and come up with something that's very useful. Yeah.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Give him a hammer and a piece of wood and it's always going to be a beautiful property.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Mygas has is doing some interesting things. I know that I interviewed. He was a youngish gentleman.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

You interviewed Ted Porta, I believe.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes. For a little TV segment. And I was really intrigued to hear that. Not unlike what's going on in Cabot's family, that there's a lot of family back and forth. There's a lot of interaction. There's a lot of wanting to maintain the sense of family and community, but also looking toward the future.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

That's right.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

It feels really good for me to be working for two family companies and main family companies. So it means a lot. Both of them, I think, have a little bit of throwback, but a lot of innovation. And that's what happens when you move down generations too. So it's a great combination and it's great to know you're working for good people.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Where did you grow up, Ruth?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

I grew up north at Millinocket. I had a paper business family and I've been all over the state. I also grew up with a trawler right in Rockland harbor boat I grew up on. So family in Rockland and high school there. So every time I look out my office window, I sort of think about, you know, coming full Circle and really sharing. I'm from all over the state and sharing that with my visitors.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, it sounds like you have kind of the love of the inside part of the state and also the love of the coast.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Which I know, Cabot, you and I were talking about your Vermont connection, so you have the same kind of thing, although it's love of inside of New England. I guess. So you're a coastal guy, but you also love going back to the mountains.

Cabot Lyman:

Oh, I love. Yeah, both very much so. But we came here because of the coast and we came here because of boats. Heidi and I spent a lot of time after college. We were running charter boats and sailing around in the Mediterranean for quite a while back in our. What I would call our hippie days. And that really pushed us right into Maine. Back to Maine. And I grew up coming up the coast up here and being on boats and working on boats. It was all about me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So was it important when you were looking at the lot for the hotel that it be looking out on essentially a working waterfront?

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. That's a really nice lot for Rockland, Maine. And Rockland's on a roll. And so it worked out really well to have that lot come up. And we were already starting to look about what the future brings, and that lot came, so we jumped on that very quickly. It is an exceptional lot for Rockland. That park in front will always be open, so works out great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You told me before we came on the air that you wanted there to be kind of marine and nautical touches, but you didn't want it to be your standard hotel that, you know, with anchors and anchors on the pillows. And. You didn't say that, but.

Cabot Lyman:

Well, my wife was very. Heidi was very adamant about that we weren't going to do that. And yeah, so I think we've got enough marine in there, but not overwhelming.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Ruth, what are some of your favorite, I guess marine inspired touches within 250Maine?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

I think there's just generally a lot of nods to main industry, the fabrication. The I beams reminds me of Bath ironworks and the boatyard. So I love that there's Kevlar sail rope, running the banisters and wrapping our rooftop deck. The rooftop deck sort of comes to a point, sort of shaped like the bow of a boat. So you can king of the world up there on the top corner. So it's very subtle and you really have to look for it. But, you know, the wood, the shiplap all referencing. I think our state's past and industry.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I noticed when I was going up the stairs that you've painted quotes in the stairwells and that you've made sure that the stairwells also are nice enough. So. So people would like to take the stairs, which is unusual. I take a lot of stairs and a lot of places don't. It's sort of an afterthought. Like if there's a fire, you could take the stairs, but otherwise that's not what we expect you to do. So where did that come from?

Cabot Lyman:

That was my deal. I've seen that in other places. And it's just really neat when you're walking up the stairs to see something, as you say, make it fun to go up those stairs. And I have a feeling that future generations are going to use stairs more than the elevator just because we're all realizing what we need to do. That's. Anyway, I often use stairs and not elevators in a building.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, so now people who are going to Rockland, they're going to have to specifically go in.

Cabot Lyman:

Absolutely. Yeah. That's what I want them to do.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

We won't spoil it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That's right.

Cabot Lyman:

And I notice kids like to run up and down the stairs, so that's good.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It's very good for the parents who are trying to get some. Some sleep.

Cabot Lyman:

Exactly.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That's for sure. Ruth, you have a background in wellness. You actually worked at Soma Wellness.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

I saw you interviewed Julie Wright.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Exactly.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Yeah. I think there's a lot of crossover in what I do now and have always done with what I did for Julie. Wellness is important to me personally, but I think there is a real intimacy and tenderness in taking care of people overnight and in those vulnerable hours, especially when they're far from home. And I just think a general aspect of why people travel is that escape to get away. So I want to provide that. Safety and security is another thing we do in our business. Kind of dry, but overall, just really taking care of people and providing a safe space for whatever they need. That's wellness.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I've noticed that hospitality in Maine. I mean, we've always had a strong sense of hospitality because we've been welcoming people from other places for a long time. But it seems as if it's even more upping its game. It seems like we are really trying to compete with some of the bigger markets. And at the same time, I know that sometimes getting enough people to work in the hospitality field can be a challenge. What has that been like up in the Rockland area?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

I'm very proud to Say that we are providing close to a dozen year round positions and the winter has proved really good to get us all through. There is a big difference between Portland, where I lived for years, and the mid coast area in terms of seasonality. It can be kind of tough to make it through the winter. But I think we're providing something that's fun and educational and I would like my professional legacy to be sort of providing an educational setting. I think the hospitality industry is a great place for people, such as some young people in our area who may not have access to higher education, to still advance in a field where, if you're willing to do and learn, you can really get ahead in the hotel business. And, and I'm trying to provide a working environment where I can teach them everything I know. So once I've got a good person, I try to keep them trying to provide, you know, not just a job, but maybe potential careers for people.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, and I know that that's, that's really important. We actually have. One of our sales account managers was in hospitality, I think for at least a couple decades. And the skills that she learned, that she brought into our organization were really quite wonderful. You know, it's the ability to be organized and work with people and understand how to make people feel good and welcome and cared for. Cabot, I'm wondering because you've been doing boat building for quite a long time. You started Lyman Morse Boat Building in Thomaston after you moved here in 1978. That's a few decades in, so you've probably seen some things and your business has grown a lot. What are some of the things that you've learned through this process?

Cabot Lyman:

Whoa. A lot. But you know, I enjoy being an employer with skilled people. We've got great crews and we've certainly seen a huge growth in our area. It's really changed from 40 years ago. Thomas and Rockland, Camden. And so it's a great place to live, bring up kids. And, and it's. Yeah, it's been a good run as things. What we've learned is, whoa, a lot, especially in the boating industry. And now I've learned a lot about the hotel industry that I had no idea existed. So I'm learning that every day.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, yeah, that's. I mean, if you've done one thing for so long and then say your son convinces you that we should go take a right turn, were you able to adapt to that idea easily or.

Cabot Lyman:

Oh, yeah, yeah, I'd be easy to do that, so. And yeah, three sons are pretty involved with me, and we all decided as a group. But I also have a theory that, you know, every business has a run for about 30 years, and then you've got to get some new blood. And so I'm pretty much retired from boat. My son is putting a really good crew together and doing really well. It was a long six, seven years here with a downturn for all boat businesses, not just us. And so we've come out of it a bit now, so we're a lot busier and things are good. And the mid coast area is growing, so all of it. Hopefully that will last. You know, keep on going.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

If you grew up originally from the Millinocket area, Ruth, you've also seen significant changes to your hometown region. And I think this is kind of emblematic of Maine. Maine always has kind of a back and forth, and we are one thing, and then something changes, and then we're something different, and we're constantly having to remake ourselves. Have you had the sense that things are on the upturn for Millinocket?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Ooh, that's one that everyone has been following. And I guess it remains to be seen, but I think there's some positive things happening, and I think the Millinaki will always keep some integrity as well. So I'm interested to see, I mean, what it was when I grew up. It certainly no longer exists, but, yeah, I'd love to see the locals benefit from everything that's happening there.

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah. The new monument up there is pretty interesting. I wasn't part of the conversation, but I heard about the conversation with some of the wardens. They're all buying houses in Millinocket now. There's people coming in and. Yeah. And as we know, every national park has great economy around it, so let's hope. Let's hope, huh?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Lucas St. Clair is. He's an impressive individual. He's very thoughtful. He's one of our Maine Live speakers, and he's been in the magazine. I've interviewed him. And one of the things that I've been impressed with is his ability to keep pushing forward despite naysayers, which isn't

Dr. George Smith:

always easy to do.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

We know Cavett knows a bit about that.

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Licensing and permits and building this.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, yeah, I want to hear some of this dirt then. Kavit, if this is something that you have experience with.

Cabot Lyman:

Well, we ran into some opposition because they didn't like the idea of a new building like this. But we were. Scott Tease and I were fairly adamant that you can't copy old buildings. So you don't want to. Historical societies around the country are very much behind this now because they don't want you to go in and try to duplicate an old building because you can't do it and it doesn't work. So we wanted a distinctly kind of a neat building that was standing on its own. Be a good for that south end of Rockland. And I think we nailed it really well. And of course there was a lot of naysayers in the beginning because they want to keep everything as the way they moved in. But the people in Rockland that have been there forever have been totally supportive. It's been great. So it's been an interesting. I had no idea I was going to run into that zero because social media is out of my realm and they use social media without any kind of real input. In other words, they're not involved. You can do things on social media, make a big splash, but you're not really involved in the process. So that was a big surprise to me. We learned a lot.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

The moral of the story is change happens.

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, is it possible to hold both things, to have the. Maintain the integrity of a community, maintain support of the people who have lived there for maybe generations, but also bring something in that is new that might benefit the economy and these families? Is it possible to do both?

Cabot Lyman:

Absolutely. I think we did that. I think we've got a good building. It looks good and it does. And it's going to be there for a long time. And it's well built. So it fits right in on Main street in terms of, you know, it's like the first building in 100 plus years that's been built on Main street. And it's actually quite a bit. It's longer than that actually. There was a fire in Rockland 1952, and some really nice old buildings got burned and they never got replaced because that was the advent of the whole car was moving in. So everybody moved out. They didn't rebuild anything in Rockland. So we're the first ones to really go ahead and build a new building. And some of the old buildings that burned were just fantastic. But you can't replace that. You've got to start something new. And I think Rockland is on such a roll that it's time to present a little newer face. Some people didn't like that, but generally everybody. It's all quieted down. Everybody's quite happy.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

On that note, does it seem as if there's some interesting energy going on? I know that Dowling, Walsh there's several other galleries in the area. They've been there for a while. Now. Obviously you have the Farnsworth on Main Street. Now you have the contemporary Art museum that has just reopened in the middle of Rockland, which is very modern, looking very modern. Obviously it's contemporary art. And there's actually kind of some interesting synergy between the design of your building and of the cmca. And again, it's the question of.

Cabot Lyman:

And it was unplanned.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But does it seem as if you bring something over here and you open up that possibility that it makes it possible for other people to entertain growth and change and building?

Cabot Lyman:

Absolutely. I think it's important and we're starting to see the CMCA was a good example how they came in on their own, unbeknownst to us. But it works really well with our building and it works really well for Rockland. It's great. Rockland become a gallery in a foodie town. So there's quite a lot to do for people that are interested in that. The Strand Theater has this terrific venues and people are traveling up from Portland to see what's going on. Musicians are coming up there to be part of the whole musical thing in the Strand. And of course I like the movies they show, so it's great. So Rockland's changed a lot. Farnsworth Museum is kind of Wyeth oriented, but a lot of really good stuff in there. So and so, yeah, it's a change town and well, hopefully we'll be part of it. Hopefully we're helping to push it along. I don't know.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Great minds think alike.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I was just wondering, Ruth, as someone who's on the lower end of the age range, what's it like to be back in Rockland after living in Park Portland and other parts of the world?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

It's great. We've got lots going on. My husband and family are in the art fields working at galleries and at the Farnsworth. We've got the Bash celebration this weekend which is sort of the young person innovative art party going on. And they had like a pre party lesson Thursday with a Sumo theme. It's origami theme this year. So it's all the young people. Lots and lots to do, even in March. So if we can do this in March and having the thriving hotel and we're doing events in the lobby, I think there's a great opportunity in Rockland for younger people.

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah, we had no idea what was going on in Rockland when we opened the hotel. It's unlike unbelievable how many things jump out at us from the Fisherman's Forum to some, you know, some of the food things are going on and, you know, all of a sudden we're really busy and it's really neat stuff. So everybody's having fun.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You also, in the fall, Camden, Rockport, Rockland, you pull in people from all over the world with the Camden International Film Festival.

Cabot Lyman:

All that stuff that's going on in Camden and help speed us too. Yeah. And they fill up up there. And also some people like being in Rockland better. So. Yeah, I'm in both towns, pretty heavily invested in all three towns, so doesn't matter to me. Let's bring them all in. Let's keep all three towns going.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

The Rock Coast.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. And it's interesting because people think of Maine and they have a very specific idea of what Maine is like depending upon where they've traveled. But I think that your part of the coast is quite unique compared to some of the other. You know, Mount Desert island is its own thing. Down here in Portland, we're our own thing. But your area, I mean, with the jetty and Owl's head just up the road, I mean, there's some really different things that people can experience in your part of the world.

Cabot Lyman:

Yeah. And Portland is the driving agent for all of us and things are going well down here and that kind of of helps push. But the idea is Portland's become a very modern, kind of cool town and that's pushing that whole coastal Maine. And so we're feeding off that a bit. So it's great. Yeah.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

What we offer is very different though. So still an escape, still a getaway.

Cabot Lyman:

Oh yeah, definitely an escape from, you know, so we've got, we've got a lot of Portland people coming up for anniversaries, birthdays, whatever. So it's a nice, nice turn from Portland.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It was really interesting to me because the magazine does a San cassette event, you know, five to seven once a month in different parts of Maine. And we did ours up in Camden a couple weeks ago and it was packed. We happen to be at the Camden Harbour Inn. I'm sure at some point we will ask if you would like to work with us at 250Maine, because I think it would be a great San Cassette Rockland. But the mid coast region, I mean, there were people like overflowing the porch and out into the parking lot. And this was March, so there's still a lot that's going on in Maine, even not during, you know, lobster season.

Cabot Lyman:

We're a Year round community now, which didn't 40 years ago, that just wasn't happening. And we've reached as a friend of mine who is since died, but he was saying we're a little like Santa Fe in some ways where we reached a critical mass. So it's a full year round community now where instead of just a vacation place. So it's very much changed that way. There's just something happening every weekend up there. It's really busy. I'm just amazed. We used to be pretty quiet for the whole winter up there.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, I find when I go up there and, and when I stayed at 250 main, I just could not eat at all the restaurants I wanted to eat at. I couldn't visit all the places I wanted to visit. And this is, you know, this is the Rock coast. So you'd think that it would be small enough and manageable enough that that would be possible. But there is, there's a lot going on. What do you see happening, Ruth, with 250 main? You've been open since 2016, so not quite a year we haven't been open. What are you hoping as the manager, what are you hoping to see happen with the hotel?

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Well, there's a lot going on in Maine tourism this year. I was just at the Governor's Conference on tourism last week. So certainly to stay abreast of all that and stay pragmatic. But also, you know, the second season sort of more put down some roots and find that, you know, sort of rooted pattern, especially with the seasons being so strong. But I hope that, you know, as we do put down roots, that we still maintain our cutting edge. I think that's our edge is a big thing. Cabot's a little bit of a visionary and a maverick and I want to stay true to that no matter what. And I always want to stay true to Rockland.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I appreciate your both coming in and talking with me today and I really do love the work that you've done. I mean, to stay there was such a treat. I'm hoping that we'll be back again soon. I've been speaking with Cabot Lyman, who is the owner of Lyman Morse Boat Building, who moved to Maine and started the boat building company in 1978 and then in 2016 opened 250Maine and a boutique hotel in Rockland. And also with Ruth Woodbury Star, a Maine native who is the general manager of the hotel. Thanks so much for coming in and for all the good work you're doing.

Cabot Lyman:

Thank you.

Ruth Woodbury Starr:

Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You've been listening to Love Maine radio show number 293, Designing Anew. Our guests have included Dr. George Smith, Cabot Lyman and Ruth Woodbury Star. For more information on our guests and extended interviews, visit lovemaenradio.com LoveMain Radio is downloadable for free on itunes. For a preview of each week's show, sign up for our E Newsletter and like our LoveMain Radio Facebook page. Follow me on Twitter as DRLISA and see our LoveMain Radio photos on Instagram. We love to hear from you, so please let us know what you think of lovemain Radio. We welcome your suggestions for future shows. Also let our sponsors know that you have heard about them here. We are privileged that they enable us to bring Love Maine Radio to you each week. This is Dr. Lisa Bellio. I hope that you have enjoyed our designing a new show. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your day. May you have a bountiful life.