East Meets West #28

Master Nan Lu:

Science already proves already tell us Everything is about the energy as of today, everything are changeable. Everything is about energy. It means who can understand the relationship of the energy, who will be able have a good result.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

I think one of the spine surgeons I heard a lecture once went that for the most part a surgeon should judge his outcomes by how happy he is to see his clinic. So I think especially in taking care of neurosurgical patients, I think it gives patients, I think, a good sense of ease, especially if they come to surgery, that they've tried everything else. So I'm a big fan that if a patient has some thought to try any other therapy, as long as I don't view it as something that will necessarily hurt them in the process, I'm absolutely game to have them do it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This week's show is a pretty special one for me because it talks about something that's near and dear to my heart, which is the bridging of Eastern and Western medical therapies. And joining me in the studio today I have my co host and Wellness editor for Maine Magazine, Genevieve Morgan. Hi Genevieve, Hi Lisa.

Genevieve Morgan:

Hi Lisa. I'm really excited to hear more about this topic because I know it's been really important to you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This really has changed my life. Our first guest is an individual that is probably one of the most important teachers I've ever had and this is Master Nan Liu of the Traditional Chinese Medicine World foundation out of New York. He said, this is going to be a great interview. And then we brought in Dr. Robert Eckert, who is a cerebrovascular neurosurgeon who is featured in May magazine. And the article was written by. Yes, Genevieve Morgan.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, in a funny way, we've done our own little east west bridging with the two wellness issues at Maine Magazine. The first wellness issue was last year, 2011, and we featured integrative practitioners such as yourself. And this year we are featuring three conventionally trained physicians who could be practicing anywhere in the world, but have brought their extreme medical know how and talents and just superstar status to our state. So it's been really interesting for me to do that and cross those.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I think I've heard you refer to them as rock star docs.

Genevieve Morgan:

Yes, yes. Well, we're calling the article Super Docs and it's in the current issue that you can pick up at your newsstand today. I think it just came out, so it's really great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Let's talk about East West. On the COVID we have Stephen Anderson of the Body Architect up on the east end here in Portland. Steven was in one of our original shows, Light, and I don't know what number that is, but if you go to the podcast site on itunes, you can find it. And Stephen practices qigong.

Genevieve Morgan:

Yes. And he had his own east west transition because he was an athlete who trained very conventionally as an athlete and then suffered burnout and injury and trauma and then came to qigong and Eastern medical training and Eastern physical training, and it changed his life. So it seems like everybody has this. Everybody who's interested in these topics has this moment where they understand that it doesn't have to be either or, it can be both. And that certainly happened for you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That has happened for me and it continues to happen for me. Sometimes in our lives when we find ourselves at a point of, I don't know, maybe I'll call it deep despair. I hate to say that I was in a point of deep despair, but everybody gets there, I think, or many people. Do you really question where you've been before? You really wonder, did I follow the right path? Did I go in the right direction? Is all of this for naught? And I found myself there. What I learned by going in a very different direction. So I trained as a Western medical doctor and I just knew that it wasn't quite right for my patients and it wasn't quite right for me. And it's not that what I learned was wrong. It just wasn't quite healing enough that it was the tools that were missing out of my toolbox. So I went and I trained in traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture and medical qigong, and realized that I had never been going in the wrong direction. I went in one direction, I went in the other direction, and then the key was to bridge them. And this was what I needed to do. And when we talk to Dr. Robert Eckert, we're going to find out that he actually had training over in Japan, which was, I think, offered by a fairly Western trained physician.

Genevieve Morgan:

Yeah, he was at the Mayo Clinic and still owed the Navy some time. He was on a military scholarship to medical school, and he still owed them some time. So he went over to Okinawa and scrubbed in with some of the most successful and impressive neurosurgeons in Japan and learned their training.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And we hear these stories over and over again. So it's not as if over in China, they're just practicing traditional Chinese medicine, or over the United States, we're just doing Western medicine. We're finding that there is a certain sort of global, global element that is going on. People are borrowing from ancient traditions, from modern traditions all over the world. So I think a lot of people, even though we call it East, West, I don't know that there is that distinct delineation anymore. It really is people everywhere trying to find ways to bridge therapies and bring the best to the patients in this world.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, I'm hoping Master Liu will talk

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

about that, Master Lu will talk about it, and Dr. Eckert will talk about it. We really think people are going to enjoy this show. The Dr. Lisa Radio RM podcast features a segment we call Wellness Innovations, sponsored by the University of New England. This week's Wellness Innovation is about integrative medicine and is featured in Prevention magazine. Across the country, more and more doctors are embracing complementary and alternative medicine, prescribing therapies such as acupuncture and yoga, and dispensing advice on the right way to breathe and eat. 38% of Americans already use integrative practices, and now countless researchers are proving their benefits. One study on acupressure out of the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of Colorado at Boulder followed individuals who had suffered a mild to moderate brain injury. At the end of the study, which was published in a recent issue of the Journal of Neurotrauma, those who received acupressure had better memory and attention and less stress and anxiety. For more information on integrative medicine as a Wellness Innovation, visit drlisabelisle.com

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

today's feature guest is an individual who I hold in very high esteem and wanted to interview despite the fact that we would be making a phone call rather than our usual practice of doing it in person. This is Dr. Master Nan Liu, who is the founder and director of the Traditional Chinese Medicine World foundation in New York. I know you're going to enjoy this interview. Good morning, Master Liu. How are you?

Master Nan Lu:

Good morning, how are you?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I am doing well. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast with us today. The show that we're doing this week is called east west and we will also be having a more traditional western trained physician on with us. As a Chinese medicine physician, we were interested in how you came to be doing what you were doing and we wanted to get a little bit of background about traditional Chinese medicine from you.

Master Nan Lu:

Let me start it this way, try it that way. We know that the Western medicine, any kind of medicine, they always has theories, it has a basic, has a scientific behind it. So the Chinese medicine is a different kind of framework, not based on the Western medicine, that kind of framework. They based on the Miata kind, which is as today modern science discovered what you call like a quantum information systems. If you look at the quantum information systems that have, they had, they tell that everything are connect each other. That's the today's quantum theories. So these kind of theories has been applied and used in Chinese medicine for thousands of years. One of the famous theories in Chinese medicine we call the five element theories. These are five basic elements, which means we can say one is the wood elements, one is the fire elements, one is the earth elements and the metal elements and the water elements. Generally speaking speaking, Chinese believe the whole universe, the earth universe can be simply divided as these five basic elements. All these elements are communicated and connected to each other in this system. Then the Chinese medicine applied for the human body, human organs and natures. Everything into this system make everything connected to each other. For example, if we say you have a liver function disorder, it's a simple way you go to the western test, they say, oh, your liver may be better, liver is okay, the test show you are pretty okay. But however, you have many different kind of symptoms associated with the liver function disorder. For example, like during the menstrual cycle, women experience the breast tenderness and menstrual cramp and emotional mood swings. All these symptoms, according to the Chinese medicine, they are associated with the liver function. So that's why the Chinese medicine we say because there is a liver function disorder cause you will have this symptom. So to eliminate the symptoms of. To treat the symptoms, you have to treat the liver function, otherwise you just cover the symptoms. Then I give you another example called a relationship problem. Like today we see so many people suffer acid reflux. That's one of the common conditions in the Chinese medicine. When we look at these symptoms, we diagnose the relationship problem, which means it's the stomach and the liver function relationship problem. Generally speaking, it's a liver function disorder caused stomach function disorder. So in order to eliminate these symptoms, you have to treat both organs, make these both organs function, can be harmony, then the symptoms can be eliminated. That's the generally speaking about the Chinese medicine, they use different frameworks and look at the relationships.

Genevieve Morgan:

Chinese medicine can really remedy people's chronic ailments in a way that Western medicine hasn't really achieved at this point. Not the acute infections and the disasters that happen, but chronic illnesses that seem to be taking such a toll on Americans.

Master Nan Lu:

You know the Chinese medicine, I think, but we cannot say that because the Chinese medicine only can deal the chronic illness. They also can deal acute conditions. Like for example, if you get a heart attack in the middle of the street, you get a heart attack. I think Chinese medicine better than any kind of medicine. One acupuncture needles can save your life. Before the MVU come here and then go back to the hospital, get the X ray, you might die, right, if you look at this kind of concept. But the most important things we have to look at them, it's another medicine is what kind of framework you use to look into the human body. But today science already prove or they tell us everything is about energy. As today, at the atomic level or subatomic level, everything are changeable, everything is about the energy. So therefore doesn't matter what kind of medicine is. It means who can understand the relationship of the energy, who will be able have a good result.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Dr. Liu, one of the things that I know that you focus on is the practice of qigong. And as a medical qigong student of yours, and also a teacher of the Dragon's Way class, I have found great benefit of this for this to my patients. How did you come to be a qigong practitioner and master yourself?

Master Nan Lu:

Well, I Had been trained for many, many masters. And definitely we heard about the qigong. It's one kind energy practice. Which means this special energy energy properties will allow us to discover who we are, allow us to connect to the life force. Generally speaking, we all have energies. We all know inside has a life force. And how can we use this life force wisely at the body, mind, spirit level. So for through my many years, the experience I discovered which my master tell me, then I have to practice and find the qigong. It is one of the Chinese way to discover the life force. Then use this kind of life force. You can help body achieve the balance. And also you can use these energy practices to many different kind of physical conditions.

Genevieve Morgan:

Dr. Liu, what have you seen are the indicators of a healthy, balanced human being?

Master Nan Lu:

Well, most people come to me, they are imbalanced, they are balanced, they are not going to come to me. So that's why I haven't seen a good one yet.

Genevieve Morgan:

Are there any indicators of imbalance?

Master Nan Lu:

Sure, they can stay. You know, there are so many signs as of today, we know everything's about the science. You know the most important things as of today, people listening, you know if they are listener there. So if you believe the modern science, you have to believe energy are met, matters are interchangeable. Then whatever what we see is the energy. So therefore it's energy. And they definitely they have a sign. I give you example. If you see your nail is not shiny, has many lines, your nail difficult to grow, you have a nail problem. The nail condition associated with liver function, that's the sign. Then also you say. I say the breast tenderness, that's the signs of the liver function disorder, that also is the signs. I give you other signs. Okay, so suppose you have osteoporosis, eye loss, bone loss, and many people might take some calcium pills to try to eliminate the bone loss. But however, in Chinese medicine, that's the sign of the kidney function disorder. Even the simple way where we say you have a knee problem. Suppose I might have a knee pain, knee and suffering. Then you might need a knee replacement, you might need a knee surgery, whatever what you need, that's the sign of the kidney function disorder. There are many signs in our human body. You just have to understand the relationship between the human bodies and organs and the minds and emotions.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Master Liu, I know that a focus of your practice has been on women, and you've done work with breast health. And there are a lot of women that have done the Dragon's Way and other programs that you put forth. Why is it so important to work with women and their energy levels.

Master Nan Lu:

Well, let me make a joke. You know, that's one way called a joke. In the Chinese culture, the woman is 50% of the holding, 50% of the heaven. The woman is the most important, the one after the group people. And also particularly at the western society, women has more stress than the men in my opinion. That's what I see because most women carry many masks. They have to carry be perfect mother, perfect wife, perfect job. So there are so many masks they have to carry on. It's very difficult for women. And also on the other hand, the Chinese men medicine states all women's health deliberately or indelibly associated with liver function. So which means if you can treat liver function, you can treat almost all the women's problems such like gained weight and headache, pms, menstrual cycles, breast cancer. So many conditions are all associated with liver function disorder. And also women is very sensitive, they are more sensitive than men somehow. So if they can understand their emotions caused their physical disorder. So if they can control their emotions or understand how to use their own emotions to deal the conditions, they can achieve the total health.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you believe that qigong is one way of working with one's emotions, is that right?

Master Nan Lu:

I believe qigong is the one self healing tool. So when you learn something, you can heal yourself, you can help yourself getting better. You can almost like everyone need to take a shower. Then you have an external shower. But can you do internal shower?

Genevieve Morgan:

Can anyone do qigong?

Master Nan Lu:

In my opinion, anyone can do qigong, Just anyone have a depend of what kind of physical conditions. Some people have a better result, some people have, you know, have a lesser result.

Genevieve Morgan:

How many classes do you generally need to take? Is it something that you need to do every week or for you need

Master Nan Lu:

to do every day? You just have to think this because the qigong is a different kind. Unlike any kind of physical exercise, the qigong, this kind which called the Chinese called the qigong is slow motion movement. This movement is try to stimulate the body specific energy frequency. 95% of people this specific energy frequency never have changed to restart.

Genevieve Morgan:

Someone can go to one of Lisa's classes and learn the movements and then do them at home themselves.

Master Nan Lu:

That's right, they have to learn, they have to learn. So by if you know, it's very difficult to just, you know, click the way, say hey, let me do something and go to the video. You might think someone can learn a different way. But generally speaking you have to learn, then you have to practice every day. And on top of this, it depends how sensitive you are and also depend the stage of your health.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, it sounds like what you're saying is that a consistency, a practice of taking care of oneself is important in maintaining health. That you can't just go to the doctor once a year and expect yourself to be healthy, that it's a daily practice.

Master Nan Lu:

Well, you can go to the doctors once a year because go to doctors once a year. You know, do not think the doctor can fix you. You have to look at. I'm going to the doctor once a year to do the physical, you know, test, physical exam to check how much I improve myself, look like doctor. That's the improvement. That's the test to show how good you are. Then real health is relied on your own hand. It's very important. Everybody has to be realized you are capable, you are able to control your own health.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Master Liu, you've been doing the Traditional Chinese Medicine World Conference for more than a decade now. Is that true?

Master Nan Lu:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And what challenges have you found in bringing traditional Chinese medicine and the five element or five phases approach to to the United States?

Master Nan Lu:

It's a challenge. It means it's a bridge. How to build this bridge? Because the Western mind is the way it's the Western concept. Western mind most Western mind is built on the classical science. They believe everything what they see. You know, that they hold scientific. What they called the scientific mind is based on the classical science, which is Newtonic science is a hundred years ago. It's old science. However, today everywhere you go, most you go to the hospital. All the test is based on the modern science. It's not the classical science. So the bridge is to let the people say hey, the classical science science, yes, makes sense. However, the modern science as today show you everything connect each other. Now, the Chinese medicine, just one of the oldest continuous probably the medicine existed for decades, exist for thousands of years and easy you just going to use. And even today the modern signs or they show yes, that kind of concept, that kind of principle makes sense.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And this is why you're Calling your conference, building bridges, because that's what you're attempting to do is to bridge the different types of science, classical and modern.

Master Nan Lu:

That's right, that's. I try to say that it's the bridge. So use the modern science as the bridge. So, you know, let's everybody can cross. Because in this bridge, we are comfortable, we understand. So that's why I say yes. You go to the hospital, you get an mri, you get X ray. Do you understand what kind of frequency MRI and X ray use? They are at the atomic level. So therefore to read this result, you have to at atomic level, at the quantum physics to understand everything I connect instead say everything I disconnect is individual.

Genevieve Morgan:

Master Liu, how important are thoughts and state of mind in maintaining health?

Master Nan Lu:

I think the mind is very important and the belief is very important. Because if you believe you can heal yourself, if your belief you can maintain health, then you'll be able to turn on your body differently. So your own belief, your own emotions take a major impact for the health. That's what I see for the most of my patients. And particularly if you deal for the chronic condition, you are dealing with acute conditions, it's very important.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Master Li, you just returned from China, where you go on a regular basis, I think, to spend time with your own master, Is that right?

Master Nan Lu:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And does this help you maintain your own energy and balance and sense of perspective?

Master Nan Lu:

Well, I believe everybody has to be continued study, continue learning. So because to discover the whole universe is unlimited, to grow is unlimited. So if you have a chance and then definitely has to be continuous studies and sometimes in the life come out the different conditions. It's complicated. And being a doctor is the most difficult. I think it's difficult name any kind of art difficult name any kind of technician. Because every patient is an individual, so often make a joke with the patient coming in. Have you treated this kind of condition before? I say no, because God only created one of you. How can I duplicate it?

Genevieve Morgan:

If some of our listeners have been going to a traditional western doctor their whole lives, but they're interested in now going to a Chinese medical doctor, can they do both?

Master Nan Lu:

Yes, they can do both. Because it's not to say you only can go Chinese, you cannot go to the Western, but because the patient tried the eastern and the Western way, they just have to understand Eastern and the Western is a different kind of focus. Both way is right in the Western way, when they look at the world, they have the way to see, which means they are absolutely right from that point of view, the Disease, the illness, the infection. That's absolutely right. However, if you go to the Chinese doctor, they change the different kind of frequency, they change different kind of point of view. It's the same condition, but they look different way. They are right too. So the name, the patient tried to deal this kind of condition. Then they have to understand some way they can be cooperated together. So for example, if during the chemotherapy, some patients. Okay, during the chemotherapy, how can you prevent your immune system won't jump? How can you prevent your digestive system won't be destroyed by chemo? So you have to change a different kind of diet, you have to change a different kind of lifestyle. You have to, if possible, do some simple qigong exercise, do the simple breathing and peaceful your mind and take some different kind of herbs.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Is there a place for a spiritual practice or even a religious practice in maintaining health?

Master Nan Lu:

I think spiritual practice and religious practice is very important in the health because in the spiritual level and the religion practice concept of religion. True religion is a spirit. It's to understand you are not just a body. You have to have a faith, you have to have a belief. You have to have compassion and love. So the love is an old disease and is caused by missing the love. So if you can start the love again yourself, then you'll be able to deal any kind of disease and illness.

Genevieve Morgan:

What are the common health ailments that occur as a result of the Western lifestyle?

Master Nan Lu:

Western lifestyle today cause the liver function disorder. The number one is stress. Physical stress and emotional stress, that's the number one. Today, almost all of the modern disease are associated with the liver function disorder. Then you have to love yourself. We say today a lot of conditions, a lot of disease are associated with the genetic problem. Yes, that's true. You know, you do have some kind of genetic problem. However, if you turn on the genetic code, according to the modern science, positive and negative exist at the same time. Disease and health, it's the same event in both sides. So if you have a disease, you definitely have wisdom how to control the disease. Then during the healing processing, your job is to find where you can start these healing programs. That's called love yourself. You have to believe yourself. You have to trust yourself. That's very difficult. That kind of concept is not being taught in the western society. So even we say you love yourself, it doesn't mean you're gonna buy the car, expensive car, you go out to shopping, you do this, you do it. That's not called love yourself. That's just one angle to feed your emotions, desire. But to love yourself means to trust your own inner peace, trust your inner strength, trust your own body.

Genevieve Morgan:

And it sounds as if loving yourself also means. Well, first of all, getting to know yourself and some of these qigong and some of these things that you're teaching can help people get to know themselves.

Master Nan Lu:

Yes, they can through the meditation, they can through the even they go through the simple breathings they do, they can literally to understand they are all connected each other. The energy is their life or force.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And when people connect with themselves, is it true that they also become better at connecting with people around them as well?

Master Nan Lu:

Yes, that's right. So if you can connect to yourself, if you to understanding yourself and then you be able to connect to others, that's always the same. You know, you want to love others, you better love yourself first.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, Master Liu, it's really been a privilege to have you on today. I think anybody who's talked to me about medical qigong knows how much esteem I hold you in. So I appreciate your coming on as our first national guest, talking to us by telephone, and also thank you for coming on with us right after your trip to China. It's been quite, it's been a great interview. Thank you.

Master Nan Lu:

Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I'm especially pleased to have the chance to introduce this individual for Maine Magazine minutes. This is Dr. Rob Ecker and he is profiled in the upcoming April Wellness issue of Maine Magazine. This is the second full wellness issue of Maine Magazine. The first one was the one that Genevieve Morgan and I did. Well, she interviewed. She actually did all the work. She just interviewed me last year and I continue to be impressed with the fact that Maine Magazine has such a focus on health and wellness and impressed with the fact that we have. Genevieve has called him a super doc. People like Dr. Ecker here in the state of Maine who are practicing superdocs. So I'm going to let Genevieve. Well, I shouldn't say let Genevieve please take over now.

Genevieve Morgan:

Thank you, Lisa, and welcome. Dr. Ecker.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Thank you for having me.

Genevieve Morgan:

It's such a pleasure to have you here and have our listeners listen to what you have to say. We had a great interview for the Maine Magazine wellness issue. I want to give a brief bio of you just because you've moved to the state relatively recently. And I wanted to let people know that you studied undergraduate at Harvard and received top marks from the Virginia Commonwealth University School of Medicine on a military scholarship. You did your residency at the Mayo Clinic and you were trained as an endovascular surgeon, is that correct, at the University of Buffalo?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Yeah. Nick Hopkins, who's an endovascular neurosurgeon, is kind of the granddaddy of really bringing endovascular techniques to neurosurgery. And endovascular techniques are similar to the way that cardiologists will put catheters either in the arteries in the wrist or the groin and bring them up to the heart to treat heart disease that can now be used to treat vascular disease in the head. So for acute stroke, ruptured aneurysms, unusual vascular malformations in the head and neck, we can actually, in the same way, go up through the arm or the leg to the neck and to the brain itself and treat these disorders.

Genevieve Morgan:

And you came to Maine Medical center to be the, I think, the only cerebrovascular surgeon with endovascular training in our state.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

That's correct, yeah. I'm the only dual trained. So I do open surgery to clip an aneurysm or take a blood clot out of the head or address a stroke in some way, and also to be able to actually go up to the vessels themselves to be able to treat them. So I'm the only dual trained person in the state of Maine.

Genevieve Morgan:

So you. What you do every day is go

Dr. Robert Ecker:

inside people's brains in sorts. Yeah, that is, broadly speaking, what I do. I sort of view myself sort of as a body plumber. If it's bleeding, I stop it from bleeding, and if it's plugged, I open it up. And there are lots of terrific tools and techniques to do that. And I think we're building really a nice Team of people to help take care of these patients who are often very, very sick, need acute care basically from the emergency room to their post operative care. And it really, as much as mine is sort of the technical part of it. These folks need really a good team put together. And mainmed provided really the opportunity to build a program that didn't exist elsewhere. And that's a rare thing even in the US I looked all over the US and there weren't a lot of opportunities to build something that didn't exist. And then also to be able to support taking care of these sick people.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, you're very modest about your skills, but I know that it takes a lot of training and a lot of work to do what you do. In fact, you've described it to me as some as an art as well as a technique. What is the artistic part of your job? How do you view that?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

There is a. I think neurosurgery as a whole, I think has been described as essentially a three dimensional physical exercise. So when you are from looking at a scan in a patient to then deciding how you're going to treat them from open surgery, opening up the head, to be able to even position the head, to orient the head, to be able to find the sick blood vessel, to be able to treat it, dissect the brain, is kind of a three dimensional exercise to safely get there. And that requires some training or some art to figure out the most efficient way to do that. And then endovascularly speaking, there's not, you know, it's almost a game of chess. There's sort of not one solution necessary to get there. But trying to figure out the most efficient and safe solution often requires different tools, techniques, trying different things. Even if one doesn't work to try, sort of have a plan B or plan C to get there. And I think that often is the art form to it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, that three dimensional exercise you're describing, it requires the ability to visualize at a very high level, at a level that most people probably aren't called on to do.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

I think so. I don't know. I think some people may gravitate, I mean maybe something I just gravitated towards, I mean to say, I don't know how you compare that among people. I've seen some people operating I know who have a better three dimensional sense than others. You can actually having done it for I suspect like an artist watching someone paint, kind of get a sense of watching someone work and who seems to sort of get there efficiently. And I think that is a skill you develop. I think it's also something you can work at to get better at over time by just doing a lot of cases and attempting to watch a lot of people who are very good at it do it. I've sort of gone out of my way to try and find people I view as very, very good and watch them work and see how they do what they do well.

Genevieve Morgan:

And that appropriate to our theme of east west, that journey took you to Okinawa, Japan, correct?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Yeah. The Navy, right out of training the Navy stationed me in Okinawa, Japan, which is for many neurosurgeons, kind of considered a sleepy place. But I, in a bid not to lose my skill set, went out of my way to really partner with a Japanese neurosurgeon who was there. The Okinawa island itself is some part of the Ryuku Archipelago, and there's a university there, a university hospital there. And actually a very well known cerebral vascular surgeon in his early 60s, Dr. Akio Hiodo was there, had spent some time at the Mass General as a research fellow. So spoke pretty good English. And I tried to work with him actually a couple days a week. And he was a wonderful teacher, almost sort of a second Japanese fellowship. And he would go all the way around the island to different hospitals to do different cerebral vascular cases. And he'd call me up and we'd sort of go in his car and we'd go do something else. And I think simply by having had enough, he knew that I had had a lot of experience in taking care of these patients and most of his fellows hadn't. So I think he kind of enjoyed having me around as a second set of eyes. And it was wonderful seeing him work. I mean, really, I learned an enormous amount.

Genevieve Morgan:

And then you went to Finland last year, so you went to the other

Dr. Robert Ecker:

on contingent, actually on anywhere where I was interviewing after the military. There's a man named Yoa Herness Niemi, who's at the University of Helsinki, who I've always viewed as of the generation in their early 60s, the most experienced cerebral vascular surgeon. So open, not endovascular surgeon. And I always wanted to go watch him work. So I made a contingent in every job offer when I interviewed everywhere that I would go spend a month with him and the guys at Maine Med and my partners let me go for the month of May last year. And it was spectacular. I mean, he is a. Watching him work has actually improved my technique already. I never had a patient be able to have a clipped aneurysm. So an open surgery and be able to leave the next day. And not all my patients do. But I've had a handful now who I've operated on who have left the next day. And it's simply by modifying that technique.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I have so many questions for you. Let me just start with a very simple one. For the people who are listening, who aren't doctors, just tell me what an aneurysm is.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

An aneurysm is a weakness in a blood vessel in the brain that forms. That can be something that is familial and genetic, and it can be something that comes from sort of a lifetime of smoking. They are, when they rupture, associated with a horrible morbidity and mortality. 20% of patients will die with a rupture. Of the remaining group who get to the hospital, nearly half of them will have major morbidity or mortality.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So it is a stroke of sorts.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

It is, yeah. No, it's considered a stroke. So it's a hemorrhagic version of stroke. In fact, in the young, it is the most. It is the highest cause of morbidity and mortality of strokes. So if you group all strokes together in the younger patients, subarachnoid hemorrhage, which is the kind of hemorrhage from an aneurysm, is the greatest cause of morbidity and mortality.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And just talk for a minute about the prevalence of stroke amongst people in the United States. And is that growing?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

It is. It's, I think, currently right now, the third most common cause of major morbidity and mortality in the US and that also tracks in Maine similarly.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you think it has something to do with the smoking?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

I think it's general health issues. Obesity, diabetes, smoking. All those pieces put together.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, we talk a lot on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour about preventative medicine and holistic health. But what you do, you treat people very often in emergent situations and you have been trained allopathically, conventionally, and that has such an important role in our health that I'd love to hear you speak about your view of Western medicine, not versus Eastern medicine, but as part of overall healthcare plan for somebody.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Well, I think, and this is a funny dynamic, when you'd asked me actually to be on the show, sort of east versus west, that I think most of the conception of east versus west is one of alternative medicine strategies. So be it in opposed to surgery, someone who needs medicinal therapy, some sort of form of yoga, some other thing in order to help them get through whatever that process is that might otherwise be surgical My version of east versus west is, you know, experience with Japanese neurosurgeons. In fact, I visited a number of other. I visited some guys in Kobe, in Osaka, in Tokyo, up near Mount Fuji. Another fellow who's very good at bypass, which is actually taking a face artery and plugging it into the brain artery for certain indications. And these are all allopathically trained surgeons. The fellow I visited in Finland is an allopathically trained surgeon. So when that east versus it's not really east versus west, it's sort of east and west. And we've talked a little bit about before. I sort of get involved when preventative medicine hasn't worked. I mean, that's really my main role. When all things have been tried and haven't worked and someone's having a stroke or having a hemorrhage, that needs to

Genevieve Morgan:

be addressed and everybody's very happy that you're there,

Dr. Robert Ecker:

God willing.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Are you able to work with people who are maybe further upstream? So say you have a stroke patient who's come in and they now need rehabilitation. Are you. Do you go back and work with maybe somebody who does qigong or tai chi? I mean, do you refer out to other practitioners who can help create a more holistic picture for that patient?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

I do. So much of the work we've done with rehab has actually been through New England rehab. And they have strong ties to a lot of the different communities that run a lot of these programs for stroke. I mean, there's even music programs for folks who've had brain injury. I mean, nevermind east and west, but, but sort of alternative therapies for them.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So you are about integrative medicine?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Yeah, I think they are. But so much of that is to some degree a peripheral part of my practice with those patients. It's a matter of knowing where to refer them, but not actually that's not something I myself do, but certainly as far as referring them within this community, it is something that the stroke patients have an opportunity to be involved in.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I wouldn't discount that I mean, you may not be directly involved, but there are some practitioners who are very high level surgeons, just for example, who don't want to refer out to a holistic practitioner. It doesn't sound like you're averse to that at all.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

No, I mean, my opinion is if it works, it doesn't matter. What you call can be allopathic, it can be homeopathic, it can be, I mean, chiropractic care, I think, and spine care is another one. I think we send a lot of patients towards folks who do care, like chiropractic care. And if they do care, I think that's terrific. I really have no, no inherent intellectual aversion to anything that works.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But I would point out that this is a new view. I mean, you're relatively young and I think that older practitioners, and I don't want to put all older practitioners, I don't want to put them all in the same bucket. But I think people who were trained many years ago sometimes are not open to this idea.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Yeah, I think that may be true. I think one of the spine surgeons I heard lecture once went that for the most part, a surgeon should judge his outcomes by how happy he is to see his clinic. So I think, especially in taking care of neurosurgical patients, I think it gives patients, I think, a good sense of ease, especially if they come to surgery, that they've tried everything else. So I'm a big fan that if a patient has some thought to try any other therapy, as long as I don't view it as something that will necessarily hurt them in the process, I'm absolutely game to have them do it.

Genevieve Morgan:

That's great. A surgeon who doesn't always prescribe surgery. I think there's a lot of fear out there that that's what surgeons just want to do, is cut into people. So the fact that you're willing to go and recommend other practices before, but ultimately sometimes you really do need surgery. And that's when technology comes, the advances in technology come into play. I know you've been around the world. You've looked at many different practices across the nation and you are here in Maine and relatively recently, but you're helping build a practice that is at the cutting edge, technologically speaking, in the country.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Yeah, I think right now, as of, there's only one technology that we don't have available in Maine that is available everywhere else in the world, which is a particular kind of stent for reconstructing very large aneurysms. But as of April 9, that won't be true anymore. It's a stent that's incredibly similar in how it delivers and in its indications to other stents. It just in the way it's designed.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And a stent is just to back up.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Right. A stent is a small metal tube that is used usually to repair a hole in a blood vessel associated with an aneurysm or some other vascular lesion. And there are a number on the market now that are approved for aneurysm work. There is only one of them that we don't have here now. They deliver in terms of how they're used in the brain in very, very similar manners. So it's not that first patient should rest assured that having already done a couple hundred, that it's not a uniquely new device. But it has some certain properties. Especially it's the amount of. They're all woven a bit like chain mail in their made. They're not just solid metal pipes. Most of them, though. However, the amount of metal in them is very small because you want them very flexible in the brain. There are some, though, where you want to primarily put a stent and have more metal coverage to be able to occlude an aneurysm. And this is a stent that has more metal in it than the other. So that's really its fundamental difference.

Genevieve Morgan:

So as of April 10th, we will have.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

It's called the pipeline stent. And there'll be nothing actually in cerebrovascular surgery and endovascular surgery that we will not have available here in the state

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

of Maine, which is pretty incredible because for a long time we referred patients out to Boston, for example, or New York or other parts of the country because we haven't had this. But now in your particular field, we have the technology.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

That's correct.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And we have. You said nine people in your practice here in Portland.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

There are nine neurosurgeons in my practice. I have one radiology partner, Dr. Chris Baker, who is. You know, you can't be on call all the time for acute stroke. So right now we're on call every other day. And we're thinking that we're probably going to need a third partner as we develop forward. But I really don't think there's any other institution they develop as much as we are the technicians. Like I said, there needs to be a whole background to getting these patients cared for, and I think we're building that team now.

Genevieve Morgan:

And there are other conditions that your team treats aside from aneurysm stroke. There's the spinal issues.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Essentially, we cover all of neurosurgery, brain tumors. There's a level one trauma center that we staff, so all the trauma gets staffed through us. That includes spine trauma. Degenerative spine is a huge part of our practice. There are also some specific other problems. There's some pain syndromes like trigeminal neuralgia, which is a face pain syndrome. We take care of pituitary disease. Some people split out differently from other tumors. We take care of pituitary tumors. So the whole sort of complement of neurosurgery between nine of us, and there are likely going to be a few more of us in the years to come as we build the program will be taken care of. We have a pediatric neurosurgeon among our group, Dr. Jim Wilson, who's been here for a number of years. So a good group of people.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How did you become the doctor that you are? Why did you decide when you were in high school? I want to go to college. I want to go to medical school. What was your background? I'm interested in that, actually.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

If you told me in high school or college that I'd be doing what I was doing, I would tell you were crazy. I have to say, this was not even on the radar. I originally had interest to get. I was interested in healthcare policy. I actually had worked a little bit on Capitol Hill along the way. I don't know if we, Genevieve and I had discussed that before, but I had some interest in getting an MD and an mba. But everything sort of there was a nexus. I'm a third generation surgeon. Both grandfathers and my father were surgeons. But I apologize to my dad, when I started medical school, I had no interest in being a surgeon. He laughs at me a bit now. But that being said, when I was a third year medical student, Medical College of Virginia has a very long history with trauma. It's one of the leading level one trauma centers in the country. It developed some of really the early thinking about how one treats raised pressure in the brain with head trauma. And it was a spectacular group. And I hadn't really intersected. I did neurosurgery as a third year medical student. I interacted with a couple of patients who had ruptured aneurysms and another patient who had a syndrome called the locked in syndrome, which is there is an artery that runs in front of the brainstem called the basilar artery. And when it gets occluded, patients literally can be wide awake but move nothing but their eyes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And there was a book about that. The Diving Bell and the Butterfly.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

That's exactly right. Yeah. Beautifully written book and the movie made about it too. And having seen a patient locked in and I thought, boy, there has to be better treatment for that. I saw a patient after they couldn't be helped anymore. They'd already had their brainstem stroke and seen some patients with aneurysms. I was interested in both. And I was also interested in open technical neurosurgery. So I kind of had this plan that I wanted to do open neurosurgery and endovascular, but wasn't exactly sure how it would meet out. But I really discovered that as a third year medical student. So prior to that, I didn't have particular interest in it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What did you do when you were in what were your interests in high school?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Oddly enough, my original interest in life related to a few different things. I always loved the ocean. Some interest in marine biology. And as a kid I had some interest in being an actor. Actually. I did a fair amount of acting in theater in Boston, Children's theater in Boston.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Do you think that this ocean thing, did that lead to the Navy piece for you or did they just kind of put you where they wanted you?

Dr. Robert Ecker:

No, the Navy scholarship was I'm of a family type that will pay for whatever college you go to. So I went to Harvard, cost my parents an arm and a leg with that. And then after that you're on your own. So with that, both my grandfathers and my father had been my one grandfather was in the army, the other grandfather was in the Navy during World War II. My dad was a corpsman during the Korean War. So kind of joining the military to pay for medical school seemed like a natural fit.

Genevieve Morgan:

I want to just ask one last question about that. You did spend some time in Maryland with the Wounded Warrior Project, right? Will you just describe to listeners what you did there, because it's really interesting.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

So for the first year and a half of my military service, I took care of the folks in Okinawa, which is about half a million people west of Hawaii. And after the last two and a half years of my service, I spent taking care of the wounded warriors in Maryland, so taking care of all the guys from Iraq and Afghanistan who had neurologic injuries helping be. There are 11 neurosurgeons there. There are three guys who were similarly trained as myself as cerebrovascular, taking care of the majority of the folks with head injuries. We had a great group of guys taking care of most of the spine injuries who were in our group, but a bit separate. And we took care of the best example during the Icelandic volcano where the planes couldn't land in Germany, literally, you could get shot in the head in Iraq and you would be in Bethesda, Maryland, 48 hours later. So a tremendous experience, a lot of critical care experience, taking care of guys with injuries that you just don't see anywhere else in the world, or you may see them anywhere else in the world, but the inability to care for them. So really, a group of dedicated military surgeons of all sorts and medicine doctors taking care of a great group of patients. And I learned an enormous amount from that group to the point we had a fellow here, actually, I took care of probably boy, I probably did it about six weeks ago, who had a tire explode in his face. So a big truck tire, usually they're done in cages explode. And he had an injury. I have to say, that was awfully like a lot of the guys from war. And that experience helped take care of this guy here. So, I mean, a lot of great patient population, really great group of guys.

Genevieve Morgan:

Rob, we're so lucky to have you in the studio today and also lucky to have you in our state. Thank you very much for coming today.

Dr. Robert Ecker:

Well, thank you for having us and for helping build and support this program that we're trying to build here.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle. Dr. Lisa Belisle. This week's show featured Master Nan Liu of the Traditional Chinese Medicine World foundation in New York and also Dr. Robert Eckert, a cerebrovascular neurosurgeon from Maine Medical center who is featured in the April or most current issue of Maine Magazine. These individuals spoke on the ways that they have used both Eastern and Western medical knowledge in their practices and in their lives, their personal lives. And I think they give a pretty good representation of the type of thing that we are doing all around the world these days. Matching the old with the new, matching east with west, and really trying to find what works for people from a healing standpoint. We hope that our listeners have gained some knowledge and perhaps will be inspired to go out and bridge some of their own knowledge gaps or bring together things that perhaps seem incongruous, east, west, old, new, and really create a healing strategy for their own lives. This is Dr. Lisa Belisle. For more information on our guests go to drlisabelisle.com thank you for being a part of our world. May you have a bountiful life.