Family Transitions #60

Peg Libby:

program Kids get Through Divorce Kids get through very, very well. It's how their parents handle it that makes the big difference that's really the deal breaker.

Dana Cleaves:

And if you're a friend of the couple who are divorcing, don't take sides and don't abandon them. But you should let them know that I hope we can remain friends with both of you and be there for you through this process.

Catherine Miller:

You know your family better than anybody. You know what your children like. You know where the money goes. You know how you like to spend money. Do you want to decide or do you want a judge who is busy? Who's going to hear the case for four hours? Make a decision.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast show number 60 Family Transitions, airing for the first time on November 4, 20, 2012 on WLOB and WPEI Radio Portland, Maine. Divorce is a difficult event for all involved. It could be an especially challenging transition for children and parents. Today's conversation with attorney Catherine Miller, former judge and mediation specialist Dana Cleaves, and Peg Libby, executive Director of Kids first, will help us learn ways of strengthening newly restructured family bonds. I have my own very personal experience with family transitions that occur due to divorce. For readers of my blog and patients and people in my community, this news doesn't come as a surprise. My children have a wonderful father who is very devoted to them and and we were able to remain married for almost 19 years. But not too long into the marriage, we began to suspect that things weren't as they needed to be for us to remain as a couple. We tried very hard and when I finally experienced job loss and lots of other things that many people who are listening I know understand financial difficulties related to the economy, inability to sell a house, things got really, really tough in our family. At the same time, we understood how important. It was for our three children that we maintained family strength. So this show is deeply personal to me. I understand how challenging it can be to go through a divorce both as an individual and as a mother. I also have counseled many patients and their families through the divorce process and through family restructuring. I know that the statistics show that at least 50% of all relationships end in divorce, and unfortunately, I think that this is an all too common occurrence that people aren't really willing to talk about. And I also think it's something that society contributes significantly to. It's something that there are things that we're doing within our bigger world that are causing marriages really to come under pressure and feel significant strain. I'm honestly not sure that our culture and our society is very marriage friendly or very relationally long term relationship friendly in general. But that's not what this show is about. That show is about people who have gotten to a place where they know that they need to restructure their families for whatever reasons. And I hope that by listening to Kathryn Miller, Dana Cleaves, and Peg Libby, you'll gain some insight into ways that you can foster resilient children and help your family move forward in a stronger way. The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast is pleased to be sponsored by the University of New England. As part of our sponsorship collaboration, we offer a segment we call Wellness Innovations. This Wellness Innovation comes from the Dartmouth Undergraduate Journal of Science. On average, children in married families fare better than children from divorced families. Nevertheless, the vast majority of children possess great resilience and the ability to cope with or even benefit from their new life situations. Internal factors such as the child's psychological and physical characteristics and external factors such as the immediate and extended family and the community environment influence a child's resilience and ability to cope with parental divorce. Good parenting and extra familial protective factors such as peer relationships. Schools and support from non parental adults, including mentors and neighbors, also contribute to children's resilience and effective coping. For more information on this Wellness Innovation, visit dsetorlisa.org for information on the University of New England, visit une.edu.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

earlier this fall, Catherine Miller contacted me and said, you know, I think you might want to have a show about this very important topic and it's something that I deal with on a regular basis, and I think it's something your listeners should learn more about. So I agreed and I talked with her and I said, what is it that you think people should know about families in transition or people who are divorcing or separating? What is it that's important? Because I know that this impacts families in a much bigger way than a lot of people often anticipate when they go into the process. So joining me today, I have Kathryn Miller, who is a local attorney specializing in family law. I also have Dana Cleaves, who is a former family court judge.

Dana Cleaves:

That's correct.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And Peg Libbey, who is the executive director from Kids First.

Peg Libby:

Hi there.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And Kathryn, just tell me the name of your law firm for those who are interested in learning more about you.

Catherine Miller:

I'm Miller, Family Law and Mediation.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Why is it that each of you chose to be involved in a field that can probably be somewhat challenging at times? I mean, when you're going into a situation with families that are going through this significant transition, divorce, separation, emotions are high. Do you want to start with that?

Dana Cleaves:

Sure. I think the three of us probably came from a to it from different directions, but all with the same concern, which primarily I think is that when families go through the transition of divorce, it's really the kids that are vulnerable or most vulnerable. We can pretty much be certain that the divorcing parents are going to be okay a few months after the stressful divorce process. But whether the kids are okay or not depends almost entirely upon how the parents do it, how successfully they kind of navigate that transition. And from my own point of view, I was seeing as a trial court judge sort of specializing in family law, that way too many parents were not doing that successfully, and that the adversarial process that the court provides was not helpful to say the least in that transition. So I left the court to do a private practice in that. And Katherine and Peg, I think come from the same motivation.

Catherine Miller:

I would agree with that. And I was a litigator in a general defense firm in town and enjoyed the litigation, enjoyed the court, and found myself navigating to family cases and realizing that was completely inconsistent with how a family should handle their divorce. And so over the years and in the last 15 years, I've developed a practice where I'm providing folks with an alternative approach to going to court. Ultimately, they may wind up in court to finalize their divorce, but at that point it's a final, agreed upon divorce, and they've done all the hard work outside. And instead of being in a courtroom, they might find themselves in an office like Dana Cleave's office, mediating. So I'm now I'm doing some mediation, but I'm still lawyering. And we're trying to provide these folks with a forum to resolve disputes in an amicable fashion. And people think divorce is just inconsistent with an amicable process. But I think if you guide the folks, put them in the direction of Kids first, put them into a mediator's hands, they can go through this process with respect, with dignity, and realize that they've preserved their family, they've changed it. But I think it takes some negotiations and some direction. But I think leading by example and really showing them they can do it.

Peg Libby:

Yeah, I completely agree. That's what Kids first is all about. People usually can get through divorce. Kids get through divorce actually quite well. As long as there's not continued conflict. It's not divorce that really hurts kids. It's continued conflict. And so every program at the Kids first center is taught through the kids perspective. What does this feel like? And I found that even really good parents don't always understand what behaviors make it difficult for kids. Divorce is so prevalent in our society. I think people don't think it's a big deal. Divorce is a big deal to kids, it's a big deal, but how their parents handle it makes all the difference in how well they get through it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, Peg, give me a little bit of background on Kids first and how it came to be.

Peg Libby:

Well, it's pretty neat, actually. Back in the late 1980s, there were a group of family law attorneys and a group of mental health professionals, and they were each working with divorcing families. But they felt that they were giving different advice, and they were called Resources for Divorced Families. And they decided that they would try to develop a co parenting education program for divorcing parents that taught people how to go through the transition and set up what we call a co parenting relationship. And they brought in a teacher from Cobb County, Georgia, and she did a lot of work with divorcing parents. And it's a psycho educational program that they put together. And then so the Kids first program was born in about 1988. They chose to have it always presented by one man, one woman, one family law attorney, one mental health professional, and not make it counseling and not make it therapy. Just make it what we call psychoeducational. And then in the late 1990s, they thought, wow, it would be really great if we could have all these services under one roof and open up a center. And they teamed up with the Junior League of Portland. And in 1998, the Kids First center opened.

Dana Cleaves:

And that's when we hired Peg. And since then it's been really successful. It's really interesting how that came about, because Peg's right. Back in the early 80s, when I had first started specializing in divorce as a trial judge, it was obvious that the legal professions and the mental health professions weren't even talking to each other about the impact of divorce on kids. In fact, they were both sort of suspicious that the other profession was largely the problem. And it was really, I think it was Kathleen Sullivan who really suggested we get the professions together and start having these annual educational seminars. And then we simply from there didn't know how to fundraise. So the League of Women Voter came along and said, look, we can help you. We'll give you some financial help and we'll give you some training. And in three years time we hired Peg. And the center has just since then become a tremendous resource for divorcing parents and their kids.

Peg Libby:

It was a great opportunity for me. I had worked for another nonprofit for 18 years and had some ideas that I wanted to try out. And when I decided to throw my hat in the ring to apply for the Kids first center job, it enabled me to do lots of things that I had wanted to do before. My background isn't mental health or law. Actually, my background is fundraising, marketing and public relations and resources for divorced families in the Junior League of Portland. Thought that that would make a good executive director. And I'm glad that they had faith in me to do that.

Catherine Miller:

And it has.

Peg Libby:

It's been great.

Catherine Miller:

We help at the center. I'm on the board at Kids First. I can say we, but I think we help 3,500 people a year.

Peg Libby:

Yes, over 3,500 people a year for Direct Services. You know, that's not just on the phone, that's Direct Services. I'm very proud of that. For very small budget, we're a lean, mean machine.

Catherine Miller:

And I think as a practitioner, what I enjoy most about the center is I have something that I can send clients to. When clients want to do something, they want to learn more. They have something to go to. They have the Kids first program to learn about the first four hours of the divorce. They have a step parenting program. They've got the next step when the conflict and the anger really is just. Is impalatable. And then last, they have the. They also have. Well, there's More, but then the high conflict. The nine week program. The iCope is an intensive co parenting education program. People come out with skills that really carry with them as they try to co parent.

Peg Libby:

I think that's one thing that the center does very well is it gives people practical tools to use. It's not therapy, as I said, it's not counseling, but it gives them a toolbox to use. It gives them the language, it teaches them how to set up a respectful style of communication with their former spouse or partner. I just think that's what's helped make it so successful. We also do divorce support groups for children. We work with kids, grades one, all the way up through high school.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Kathryn, what are some of the things that you're noting as issues for people who are coming to you early on in the divorce process? What are some of the biggest things that come up for the individual or the family?

Catherine Miller:

Well, I think right now we've been talking a lot about the kids. Finances are a clear issue. I don't think the economy has been kind to families and that is a stressor that impacts marriages. So I find that in the last couple years people are living together longer, clearly after the marriage has broken down. So by the time they get to an office, to me, to a mediator, to anybody, they're at their wit's end. So I think a little bit problem solving, figuring out how are we going to save the home, how are we going to deal with the debts, what tools can we do? My approach is looking at the problem, trying to maximize the pie as large as you can and be creative in the way we solve those financial problems. It's easy to say let a house go into foreclosure, but that's not going to be a long term solution. So I think the creativity needs to come into play. I think that co parenting is something that you teach. I don't think it comes natural. It's ironic that during the marriage people may have trouble and difference in parenting styles. And now they come to me in the divorce and I say, unfortunately you're going to have to become a better co parent than you were. The communication skills you didn't have during the marriage now need to be strengthened and people look and say, how am I going to do this? And I think that again, putting people in the right hands, teaching them that they can do it and come to a win win solution, it breaks down

Peg Libby:

to be possible and teaching them that they can do it because it's best for their children. I think that's how we get to parents is by saying, you know, this isn't. Nobody's going to win here, nobody's going to lose. To set up this relationship, this new co parenting relationship and style of communication is good for your kids.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Dana, what were some of the things that you saw when you were presiding as a judge? What were some of the things that caused people to be most adversarial within the courtroom setting?

Dana Cleaves:

Well, first of all, you know, just the process of divorce is stressful all by itself. It means the breakdown of a relationship that they had great expectations for. So no matter what the cause is or what the circumstances are, it's a big loss, a really hurtful loss. So people are in emotional stress, and so it's hard for them to, in that same process, to come back together and communicate appropriately and resolve all the issues that divorce presents. Because as Kathryn points out, there are financial issues, there are property issues, there are parenting issues, there are ongoing support issues in the future, very complicated and difficult issues. And when you're angry and conflicted and going through a stressful process, it's very difficult to do that. The problem with the court process, although we need it as a safety net, as kind of a final place to get a decision made if it can't be done any other way, is that it is essentially adversarially based, meaning you bring all your information and ammunition into the courtroom and try to persuade a decision maker that you should win and the other side should lose. And that's just a very destructive way to resolve issues for folks that have to come back together after that process and provide co parenting. I mean, in my private practice, I try to help the folks focus on the fact that even though a divorce is happening, if they have children, they are always going to be a family, and they should even use that terminology and help the court's kids understand that once they're through that process, they're going to be very supportive of each other as their parents and be able to communicate and cooperate in their care. And if they can do that, the kids will be fine because they won't have lost anything other than their parents being in the same house. And that's a loss that they can manage. And Kathryn's absolutely right. One of the big ironies in this whole process is that in almost every divorce, inability to communicate appropriately is at least a significant part of the breakdown. And yet what they're hearing from me is, well, now you've got to communicate better and taking care of your kids after divorce. So it really is ironic. But it can happen if the process itself doesn't destroy it.

Catherine Miller:

here on the

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast. We've long recognized the link between health and wealth. Here to speak more on the topic is Tom Shepard of Shepherd Financial There

Catherine Miller:

was a time when we were completely dependent on money that was given to us by others.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Over time, we learned that we need

Catherine Miller:

to grow and develop new skills to

Peg Libby:

make money serve our life and purpose. The interesting thing is that we are

Catherine Miller:

still dependent on money that is given

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

to us by others. Our independence does not come from being

Peg Libby:

free of money, but in showing up every day and doing our job at creating value in the world around us. If you're interested in teaching young people what you know about money, send us

Catherine Miller:

an email to currencycampmainemail.com join our community

Peg Libby:

of teachers Giving back

Peg Libby:

The other thing we tell parents is that they're parents forever Hopefully. And that even though their children may turn 18 years old, they're still parents. And you want to be the one that's invited to the hospital when the new grandchild is born and you want to be part of the wedding. And you know, I hear horror stories from adult children whose parents won't even stay, stand in the same room to have their pictures taken during a wedding. I mean, it's just ridiculous. And if you really think about putting children first, that wouldn't even be part of the discussion around wedding planning as to who's going to stand next to who in the picture.

Catherine Miller:

I think you can often put things in perspective when you have a difficult situation and whether it's the finance they can't decide on or the children. And I look at the folks and I look at my client, if I'm mediating, look at the two of them and say, if you clearly cannot agree, we have a perfectly competent, experienced judge who can make a decision. But who do you think is a better decision maker right now? The both of you or you as an individual client? You know your family better than anybody. You know what your children like, you know where the money goes, you know how you like to spend money. Do you want to decide or do you want a judge who is busy, who's going to hear the case for four hours, make a decision? And ultimately it may not be plan A and it may not be plan B, and sometimes that option C is what they choose. But they're still better decision makers than a judge. Not because a judge isn't qualified. It's just they don't know all the facts. And I think a former judge sitting here would agree with that. That's. But they're there when we need them, as you said, through the safety net.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, for those who are listening, who aren't familiar with the process of mediation, can you give us a little bit of background on what mediation is? What are the benefits, what it actually does for the families?

Dana Cleaves:

Sure. I mean, mediation is essentially an alternative way to try to resolve all the issues that a divorce presents. And by alternative, I mean alternative to the sort of well known process where you go in and have a judge decide those issues for you. So a mediator has certain skills in terms of facilitating the client's discussions around an issue, make sure that they are really articulating their own concerns about the issues in a way that's clear so that the other person can take it in. And then when that's happened and the issues are on the table, when it's the mediator's job to facilitate their discussions around the issues and help them come to agreements that come as close as possible to being totally satisfactory to both of them. And there are different styles within mediators in the mediation process. My own is a little more directive because my background is as a decision maker in that area, as opposed to having formal training in mediators. I mean, I've trained mediators, but I've never had any formal training myself. But what I do to try to increase the success rate in the mediation is to help them using my judicial experience to help them understand how the court looks at that issue and what the considerations are and what the law says, and maybe even what a likely result would be if I were their judge rather than their mediator. Having that information helps couples who are even very far apart on an issue to come to an agreement on it because they understand the context of their failure to come to agreement. It just increases the success rate somewhat. But the whole purpose of mediation is to help folks get through the process, end up feeling as though they did it as well as they could, that they treated each other fairly, and they were treated fairly because that puts them in the best possible position to have a good co parenting relationship after the divorce, as opposed to having a contentious process and having somebody else impose a decision upon them that neither of them may like and have the conflict continue, which interrupts the communication and cooperation around their kids.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

But doesn't this necessitate that both parties are actually willing to come to the table?

Dana Cleaves:

Yeah, it does. And surprisingly, you know, I get a lot of referrals from mental health professionals who have been working with couples, and they can kind of explain the difference between, between that and the adversarial process. A lot of folks have had family members and friends who've gone through the contested process and understand how destructive it is. So I think couples are seeking out alternatives much more on their own than they were 10 years ago. I think it's become well enough known so that there is an alternative out there and people call Kathryn or call me to get that kind of help, as opposed to automatically hiring a paid advocate that can then make the process contentious.

Catherine Miller:

There's a lot of also advantages, and studies show that long term people follow mediated agreements, that they reach settlement agreements, and mediated agreements have a lot longer life. People, when you have a judge's decision, often then in a few years look to change it because they were never satisfied from the beginning. The second thing that I think the advantage of mediation is they save money. You can save a lot of money because you're not hiring necessarily two lawyers from the very beginning of the case to the very end. That's an extensive litigation process. The advantage with mediation is people can still use lawyers. Lawyers are not cut out of the process to the extent someone feels they need representation. Dana, will you happily have lawyers attend? It's not necessary in every step. And as a lawyer, I am often counseling folks who are in mediation, and I'll prepare them for the mediation. I'll tell them the law. I'll tell them what their rights are and give them parameters in which they have a right to make a decision. They know what's fair, and often this decision falls within that parameter, but it's how they want it. And that's again, the key, control. Having control to make your own decisions is really important.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

One of the things that I hear over and over again from my patients or from friends who are going through difficult times is they're not even sure how to begin the process, just from a practical standpoint. So I know that it's tempting to just pick up a phone, call your friend, and say, well, who do you know who's a lawyer? How do people find lawyers in the community who know how to do mediation, who sort of tend towards that, tend towards that direction? How do you start gathering resources?

Dana Cleaves:

I think it's very similar to finding the right kind of medical professional. You know, you don't just pick somebody out of the yellow pages. You do ask friends and other people you know in that community for references. You can call the Kids first center, for example. That's a good independent source of references. Probably most of my clients nowadays come from former clients, so that is a reliable source. You're a mental health professional. If you been working with a counselor can do that. I think it takes. It's worth the effort to do a little digging around as opposed to making a quick decision, just like it is in any other important process that you're going to be involved in.

Catherine Miller:

I think lawyers have a lot of control over the process, and I think that people need to interview lawyers. They don't have to interview a lot, but if they walk into a lawyer's office and that lawyer has their claws out or just an approach that that client's not willing to take, they need to get a second opinion. I tell my clients the first initial consult, don't make any decisions today. Go home. You've heard how I approach things. This is my style. This is a really important decision for you. And just like a healthcare provider you need to be matched up with somebody who shares your philosophy that has a balance of compassion, of diligence and respect. And I think that clients can often get in the wrong hands.

Peg Libby:

I really agree with that. When parents call and ask for references from kids, first we remind them that they are the boss. They're the ones that are hiring this professional. And if they want to disagree, then they need to speak up and say, no, I don't want to do it this way. I don't want to go down that road. I think it's really important. We have clients that call and say, we, well, the dad and I think that this should happen. And we say, well, that's fine. Then tell your attorney. We can tell our attorneys that say, yes, actually, you two can make the decisions. Anything that you agree to is great. And they're sort of surprised. They think once they start the process, it's all in the lawyer's hands and that they just sit back and ride along. And that's just not true. They're the boss.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Peg, one of the questions that I asked you the other day when you and I were talking on the phone was what are the long term implications of or ramifications of divorce on children? I mean, this is clearly something that the parents have initiated. The kids don't necessarily want their families to be fractured. I mean, very few children are actually fans of divorce. What do we know happens with kids who have gone through the divorce process?

Peg Libby:

Well, recently, research shows that a very adversarial divorce, a divorce with high conflict kids are at greater risk for substance abuse, for risky behavior, for truancy, for homelessness. Part of the reason, Dr. Lisa, is that there aren't two parents that are really watching out, especially during the high school years. I'm going over to dad's house. Great. You know, mom doesn't speak to dad, hasn't spoken to him for five years. And she's not at dad's house, you know, she's at somebody else's house. They don't continue to be real active parents because they're not communicating with the other parent. But it doesn't have to be that way. I think that's one thing that I really want your listeners to take from this. Kids get through divorce. Kids get through very, very well. It's how their parents handle it that makes the big difference. That's really the deal breaker.

Catherine Miller:

Children also emulate the behavior of their parents. Parents are role models. Children are a little bit of both parents. So if they see a situation where the parents aren't treating each other with respect, they're going to learn that's how you handle relationships. And so I think having that co parenting relationship as a role model really is guiding them as to how they're going to handle future relationships.

Peg Libby:

Yes. And that's one real challenge for kids that have been in highly conflictual divorce situations is they're really afraid to take a chance on love. And we hear that over and over again. We interviewed some high school students a few years back and they really talk about their faith, fear of marriage, their fear that it's not going to work out. And that's kind of sad, you know, but.

Dana Cleaves:

And that all arises from the fact that if parents are in conflict, then the kids can't be close to one parent without feeling disloyal to the other. And think about what that means emotionally for a child not to be able to be close to a parent without feeling disloyal to the other. And that's what gives rise to this concern. A fear of making commitments on their own when they're older.

Peg Libby:

Loyalty issues are terrible, huge for kids. We'll have parents call and say, well, she doesn't want to go to mom's house. Should I make her go? She doesn't really want to go to mom's house. Oftentimes kids will try to protect the parent that they think is more sad is weaker and they'll stay to protect it. Isn't that they don't want to go to the other parent's house. They're afraid that that parent's going to be lonely, they're going to be sad. One thing we really stress at kids first is to support the relationship with the other parent. They can do that and sometimes they don't even realize that they're trying to undermine that relationship. But complimenting their dad or their mother in front of them. Your mother was always a terrific skier. Just small things like that really. Say to the child, I respect your mother, I respect your father, and it's

Dana Cleaves:

okay for you to be close with her.

Peg Libby:

Yes.

Catherine Miller:

I think one of the questions I commonly have in my office is what is the age that children are legally allowed to decide where they want to live? And I say to them it's not the question of when they get to decide, it's a question of what do we need to do to fix the problem? Why is it they don't want to go there? If that's really what's the case and what it is, what do we have to do? How do we improve things? And I think that there's a switch. And I just am 15 years that I've been doing this, I think that people are approaching it with saying, okay, we're going to start with 50, 50. I think that the primary residence, one child living with one parent, isn't as common as it was 15 years. Judge Cleaves can even say longer. So I think that helps. The presumption's there that kids benefit from two homes. That's there. So when somebody says that's not the case in our family, practitioners and providers really need to find out why. Get them to kids first, educate them, learn what the problem is. Because often it can be fixed. And when it is, it's for the benefit of the family. The parents win as well as the children.

Peg Libby:

And on the other hand, a parenting arrangement that was great for a 6 year old probably isn't great for a 15 year old. And it may not be 50 50. And that may be what's best at that time. You know, a kid in high school was going to want to spend Saturday night with their friends. And if the other parent lives in Vermont and there's a big dance, then somebody's got to say, hey, I understand you want to go to this dance. That's great. Have a great time. Call me tomorrow, let me know how it went. So even though 5050 sounds like the absolute best, parents should stay open to the idea that at some point they may have to give up a little time just because they're putting their kids first.

Catherine Miller:

And there is an odd number of days in the week. So it's not always 50, 50, but what we use in the practice is substantially equal parenting. How Are they involved? Who's going to the games? It's not just where kids sleep, it's how are the parents parenting?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I have a question about gender roles. I know that this is something that used to be the case that it would be the mother who was given primary custody and then the father would give visitation. Now we have more of a co parenting situation. But I have male friends who have suggested to me that they still feel as if there's sort of a female bias to the legal system. What would you say to that?

Dana Cleaves:

I mean, there certainly was when I first began in 1980, 79 and 80 when I first started hearing divorce matters, sort of culturally inbred, largely because traditionally mothers were home more and dads were the breadwinners. And that whole thing has changed over the last 20 years. So, you know, I don't, in my practice, I don't see it anymore. I see, I do have couples come in that have that sort of preconception, but with a little time and effort they can see why there's no real solid foundation for that conception. It's not necessarily in their kid's best interest to have a preference based on gender that way. So I don't see it as a hindrance anymore. I've been gone from the court long enough now, so I can't say if there's a remaining bias amongst the judiciary. I'm just not sure about that. But I certainly don't see it in my practice.

Catherine Miller:

I think also practically this may be an indirect result, but I think the divorce changes the family and often somebody who was the breadwinner can't capture the gap that financially exists. And I think you're taking one set of household and an expense and dividing it. In two households there generally is a change in work. And so somebody may have stayed home and presuming in your role it was the mom, likely she may be returning to the workforce. And so that change in a stay home moment often does change, not just because of the divorce, but because the children are getting older and times requires her to have health insurance too. There's a difference now, I think financially that has fed into eroding any bias that really ever may have existed.

Dana Cleaves:

There really is a fast paced change. I mean, it's only in the last 20 years. The child support guidelines which we created in 1989 were sort of structured on the fact that there would be a primary residential caregiver who was almost certainly to be the lower earner, meaning mom. I mean, the whole guidelines were structured that way and that's just not. They don't fit anymore in terms of the majority of cases. So what I do with my clients is to have create budgets for both of them going forward to see what their monetary needs are in after tax dollars to meet their budget. And then we'll take a look at the guidelines to see if they happen to coincide. But if they don't, we sort of move on from the guidelines and do something that is practically workable.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

When you and I were talking on the phone, I keep wanting to call you Judge Gleaves.

Dana Cleaves:

Dana's fine.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Dana, okay. You and I were talking about the fact that a lot of judges didn't really want to even see divorce cases. That this was something that people sort of. I don't know, they kind of gravitated towards you because you had a personal experience and a professional experience, personal interest.

Dana Cleaves:

Well, what I think I said, Lisa, was when I expressed an interest in hearing divorce matters, they kind of came flooding to me because a lot of other judges realized that they didn't have the time or the training or the resources to really try to improve that process. Process. And they were glad somebody was trying to do that. It's also true, I'm sure, amongst judges. Some judges don't like the emotional stress and messiness of divorces. But the primary problem that we were faced with then was an underfunding of the court system and no real ability to make good changes in the process. And so they were glad somebody was trying to make that happen. And that's why I think I was able to make it a specialty for the last 13 years that I was.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

One of the things I've noticed within my medical practice and even within the community at large is that divorce is sort of still this very hard thing for people to talk about. It's still almost a secret. In fact, I'm often surprised by the people who will tell me after the fact, oh, yes, we got a divorce a year ago. And I'll be thinking, how did I miss that? Why is divorce still such a secret in a day and age where so many people are engaging in this? And what are the problems associated with keeping this so secretive?

Peg Libby:

Well, you're absolutely right. There's still a lot of shame that surrounds divorce. And it's so unfortunate because unfortunately, half the marriages in this country do end in divorce. And keeping it a secret is really not great for kids because if their schools don't know it, if the teachers don't know it, if the neighbors don't know, makes it very difficult for the child. And the child feels like, wow, this must be a really shameful thing, because we're not sharing this as a family with anybody else. We try to help the schools understand, try to tell the parents to involve the schools, involve the daycare providers. Let your kids, friends, parents know. And I think, you know, it's interesting. I think that also makes fundraising harder too, because after a divorce, people would just like to forget about the whole thing. Thank you very much. And Kids first is supported by the generosity of the community. We do charge course fees, but they're very minimal. And of a $380,000 budget, only 80,000 is covered by course fees. So we raise $300,000 a year. And people really love center. They love what we do. And it would be great if after things calm down and things settle down, remember us as well when the annual appeal comes around.

Catherine Miller:

I think that answer to another point that Peg just made, it shouldn't be a secret because people need help. When I see a client, I know. When they're not emotionally dealing with this, I put them in hands. Have you talked to a counselor? Have your children talk to a counselor? Have you talked to your primary care physician? Do you need help getting through this? Have you talked with your accountant? There are so many different, different professionals that can make the divorcing process or separation process smoother and just possible that keeping it a secret, they're bearing that all. And as practitioners, you think that, well, they must be handling that aspect or this health must be, but their health must be fine. In reality, it's a holistic approach. And that's the exciting part about talking here to the listeners. Get help, see who you need. Talk to others, open it up. Chances are the people you're talking to have also been impacted directly or indirectly from divorce.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What suggestions would you offer? We've been talking about parents and we've talked about the impact on children. What suggestions would you offer to people who would like to support a family in transition? I know that this is one of the reasons why often people don't talk about divorces because other people don't know what to say. So if you're a teacher, if you're a health care provider, if you're somebody who's never personally gone through divorce, what would be a helpful thing to hear?

Catherine Miller:

I'm sorry you're going through this. Please let me know if I can help.

Dana Cleaves:

And if you're a friend of the couple who are divorcing, don't take sides and don't abandon them. You have to follow their clue obviously about what they want to do do during the process. But you should let them know that I hope we can remain friends with both of you and be there for you through this process.

Peg Libby:

Yeah, that's really important. One of the things that happens is people start to form tribes and they start to get all these people are on my side and these people are on my ex partner's side and it's just that's bad for kids. If you have to talk negatively about your former spouse or partner, do it right in the therapist's office. Office. You could do it with your best friend but don't try to make them come to your side. That really is really hard on kids. So try not to get auntie and grandma and everybody lined up against you badmouthing the children. If you go to Grammy's house and she's badmouthing the child's father, that makes the child feel terrible. Kids really do feel a part of each of their parents.

Catherine Miller:

I think people also compare their divorce to other people's divorces and whether it's their taking legal advice or comparing financial situations, doing this for as long as I have, there are no two divorces that are the same. Something is different. Incomes, debts, houses, children. Something's different. So when a client hears you need to fight for this or that's wrong, he should be responsible. You should get this. It's setting expectations that are almost unachievable and that causes the person going through the divorce stress because they're gonna, they don't want to go back and say I couldn't get this or this happened, I settled for less. Everybody's divorce is unique and you need to let them go through the process, support them, but not necessarily give them the advice because chances are that person doesn't have the full picture.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, isn't there also something that goes on where there's almost a Mirroring effect or maybe a contagious thing that goes on where you tell somebody, oh, I'm going through a divorce and they reflect back to you their fears about their own marriage. Or you tell somebody, I'm going through a divorce and they reflect back to you their grief over the loss of your marriage. Is that something that you see in your practices?

Catherine Miller:

It's kind of like labor stories.

Peg Libby:

It's true.

Catherine Miller:

It's true. I think that everybody. It reopens wounds and it reopens thoughts and it is a way to share experiences. And sometimes when you hear I'm going through a divorce, let me tell you about mine. It brings a common bond. But again, you just yet you need to remember your individual situation and respect. There's going to be differences.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How do lawyers feel about this? How do lawyers feel about, I mean, Kathryn, you're a lawyer and Dana, you are also a lawyer. How do lawyers feel about getting in the middle of these highly charged emotional times which impact children, impact families? How must this feel?

Dana Cleaves:

Well, it really has become a specialty. It's very hard for a general practitioner to include a divorce or two a year in his otherwise civil trial practice for those very reasons. A lot of it is personality driven. Some folks can deal with the emotional stress of clients calling them all day and night and others can't. Even on the bench, there were judges who could deal with family law cases for a year and then ask to be out for a while recess because of the stress. So some of that's particular personality driven.

Peg Libby:

Not all attorneys, but I think most attorneys really hate their high conflict divorce. It just takes a lot out of everyone. And when we designed our nine week course for parents who have been in continued high conflict, the attorneys are saying, yes, go sign up. I want these people to be done with it. So you know, it's not good for anybody. And very few attorneys get any kind of a charge out of working with very highly conflicted parents.

Catherine Miller:

I think the most conflicted feels like a lose lose. They don't feel like they're winning the battle and they see it as a battle. We don't, but they do. It also is expensive to fight. It's expensive because they're calling their counselor, they're calling kids first they're calling they're lawyers and then the lawyer calls the other lawyer because they can't talk. So I think clients then realize it's expensive and they're caught in this trap. But largely, I think you're both right. You need to have a certain tenacity to work with families in so much turmoil. And my approach is they have to realize it's not the end of the world and things are going to get better, that things will come out, new opportunities, opportunities exist. And they really need to realize that you can again, approaching it amicably and respectfully will still be a better approach, a better feeling for them. And I think I'm constantly trying to

Peg Libby:

educate them and they won't do it all perfectly. They won't do it. We really try to stress that this is a tough time and this is going to be a rough patch. But I agree with Kathryn. It's going to get better. It's going to get better. And we have a program for parents who have remarried, who are step parents, and it's a much more happier situation. But it's still, it's still very tricky. And oftentimes a co parenting relationship will be going along pretty smoothly and then one parent or the other will become involved with somebody and remarry. And there's a speed bump that the family needs some help over. And we try to provide that help as well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, when you and I were talking on the phone before Peg, you mentioned that this mostly sounds like or mostly what you're working on is communication skills and human relationships, things that are kind of broadly applicable, whether it's to parenting or to other situations.

Peg Libby:

Oh, it's absolutely true. When I was applying for the job, I sat through a Kids first program because I thought, you know, I need to know as much as I can, especially before the interview. And a lot of it is just good parenting. You know, don't bad mouth the other parent in front of the child. Don't use the child as a messenger. I was just blown away by how much it was just around basic good parenting and at the center we use an expression. We like to think of this as our little addition to world peace. One co parenting partnership at a time.

Dana Cleaves:

Significant contribution.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And there's a book that Kids first has created.

Peg Libby:

Yes, it's a great book. We asked the children in our divorce support groups if they had advice to give grownups, what would it be? And the name of the book is what Kids Want Grown Ups to Know about Divorce and Separation. And it is, it's fantastic, really, because it's a very easy read. It talks about things like holidays, how to handle holidays, how to handle transitions, how to handle the birth of a new baby and a new family. It's available through Amazon, Barnes and Noble, through our website, of course, just click on the we wrote a book banner and you can order a book through us. It's a very practical guide and it would be great for grandparents to read. Parents, kids themselves, school personnel, anybody that works with these families. Families.

Dana Cleaves:

A lot of insight in that book.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how do people find out about the Kids First Center?

Peg Libby:

We have a very complete website, which is kidsfirstcenter.org we also always answer the telephone. If you get voicemail, it's because we're all on the phone. But there's a real live human being. We don't give. We give practical advice. Not. I shouldn't say we give advice. We can help guide and answer questions in a very general way. Obviously, we're not attorneys and we're not mental health professionals, but we certainly can provide some guidance. We have a good resource and referral guide. So if people are looking for mediators, attorneys, we can help them find those as well.

Catherine Miller:

You have a lending library?

Peg Libby:

We do. Yes, we do. And it's probably the most complete library around the issues of divorce and separation north of Boston. And we encourage people to come in. It's a lending library and they get free to take out books.

Dana Cleaves:

Also, a lot of us in the mediation field and legal field and mental health field refer folks to the Kids First Center. We always have daybreak shoes in our office. And it's a part of my work with every single couple that I work with.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And there's a yearly event that takes place to also educate attorneys. Is that right?

Peg Libby:

All professionals. Actually. Actually, we. Part of our mission statement is to educate professionals around issues of divorce and separation. And we just had a conference called the Virtual Venom about how the social media and the Internet can play a part in either ratcheting up the conflict or lessening the conflict. It can be used for good and evil.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you have a Facebook page.

Peg Libby:

We do. Please friend us. We want as many friends as possible. But the website is really quite complete. We have a kids section. We have a video that was produced by kids. We have a bibliography, suggested reading, lots of links as well. So that's really a great. And you can register for a lot of our programs on our website.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Kathryn and Dana, how can people find out about you and your practices?

Dana Cleaves:

Most referrals, as I indicated before, come from previous clients and from mental health professionals and from other members of the legal community. That's my experience. How about you, Kathryn?

Catherine Miller:

I think that's how I'm often found. I think that I do have a website Also MillerLaw and mediation.com that offers information about how to approach divorce with an alternative approach how to have some limited representations. So if you can't afford a lawyer from start to finish, how you can get some good legal advice to make really good decisions for you and your children. And we're both Dana and I are both in the Oldport Kids first centers on St. John street, so we're accessible. I think people need to do research before they head down the path of divorce.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I appreciate your coming in and speaking with us today about the issues of families in transition. We've been talking to Dana Cleaves, Peg Luby and Kathryn Miller, and I appreciate, well, all the good work you're doing for the children and the families and the parents in this community.

Dana Cleaves:

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for having us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you have been listening to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast show number 60, Family Transitions, airing for the first time on November 4, 2012 on WLOB and WPEI Radio Portland, Maine. This show and all prior shows are available for free download via itunes. For more information on our guests, go to drlisabelisle.com be sure to like our Facebook page and also sign up for our Facebook page feed so that our posts will show up on your Facebook messaging system. We hope you've enjoyed this departure from our usual format. Today we were able to bring together attorney Catherine Miller, former judge and mediation specialist Dana Cleaves, and Kids First Executive Director Peg Libby as we offered more of a roundtable discussion on the subject of family transitions. We appreciate your supporting the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast and also supporting our sponsors who make this possible every week. This is Dr. Lisa Belisle. Thank you for being part of my world. May you have a bountiful life.