Growth & Sustainability #227

Nancy Smith:

so Charting Maine's future really looked at what is it we love about Maine? How do we keep it while strengthening the economy?

Tyler Kidder:

There's a lot that's different about Denmark than here, and I think it's important to acknowledge that we're not going to look exactly like Denmark. And there are a lot of people that will suspend belief in the fact that we could change by saying we're never going to be Denmark. And it's true.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to Love Maine radio show number 227, growth and sustainability, airing for the first time on Sunday, January 24, 2016. How do we nurture growth in a positive and sustainable way? Whether this is economic, ecological or social growth, the answer is the same by paying attention to what factors may be influencing it and working favorably with those factors whenever possible. Today we speak with Nancy Smith, executive director of GrowSmart Maine, Sue Inches of the Red Oak Group and Tyler Kidder, Assistant Director of Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine, about fostering mindful growth in our state. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

often said on the show, what I find interesting about having done this, for the past four years, is that life kind of. It kind of circles around itself. When I was practicing as a physician in Yarmouth, I was located in the Sparhawk Mill. And also located in the Sparhawk Mill was Grossmart, Maine. Today we're speaking with two individuals from Grossmart, Maine, not individuals who have spent time in the Sparhawk Mill. However, you're taking it to the next level. So we're really glad to have you both in here today. We have Nancy Smith, who has been the Executive Director of Grossbart, Maine since 2010. She served four terms in the Maine State House of Representatives. She's a member of Monmouth's Economic Development Committee and serves on the board of the Rural Community Action Ministry. We also have Susan Inches, who is a senior consultant at Tulsan Technology, where she works to help communities find solutions to their broadband needs. She has taken the lead on a number of policy issues, including working waterfronts, solid waste, and energy efficiency. She was the instigator and leader of the Climate Tour Denmark 2015 project. Thanks for coming in today.

Nancy Smith:

Thanks for having us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It's great.

Sue Inches:

Great to be here.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So I actually stumbled a little bit over the word instigator, because I don't often see that word used in, like, sort of in the business realm. Tell me what that means.

Sue Inches:

Well, what it means is that back about a year ago, I had met people who'd gone to Denmark and been very inspired by what had been done there. And the people that had gone were students. And so I had the thought that if this was such a great trip for students, maybe it'd be a great trip for leadership from across Maine as well. So that's really what prompted me to design an itinerary and recruit a group to go to Denmark.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So what's going on in Denmark that's so interesting?

Sue Inches:

Well, Denmark found themselves in a situation in the 1970s where they're completely dependent on foreign oil, and they didn't like that. And so they decided to start to move forward to create their own energy. And what they've done is they have decentralized much of their energy generation, where local communities are actually owning power plants.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So this is interesting to you because both of you are working with Gris Grossmart Maine, and you're really looking to find a way for Maine to move forward in a sustainable way.

Nancy Smith:

Right. And energy is a big piece of that. I've been with Grossmart since 2010 now. Sue and I partnered on the trip to Denmark, though the connection with Grossmart Maine is pretty much through the trip to Denmark. That was where we.

Sue Inches:

That's right. We were partnering on that. I'm actually not an employee of Grossmart, but we partnered on this project together.

Tyler Kidder:

Yeah.

Nancy Smith:

Grossmart came into the Denmark discussion probably about six months before the trip.

Sue Inches:

That's right.

Nancy Smith:

Looking at who the right people would be, because it really was limited. We. I think sue was shooting for 13 people. We ended up with 14. So how do you get the appropriate mix of private sector, public sector, nonprofits, the environmental focus, as well as community centered? Because we knew one of the things that Denmark really offers is sue mentioned decentralization. It really is about community solutions to the energy issue. Their goal was to get off of fossil fuels. And for Maine, the biggest lesson learned at this time is that for change to have lasting power and for there to be real impact, it has to be at the community level. So those were the lessons learned that we were looking for when we headed to Denmark. Back right before Labor Day.

Sue Inches:

Yep.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So the idea behind Grow Smart is that you really want to grow mean in a thoughtful way. Who had the idea to do this

Nancy Smith:

in the first place, the idea for smart growth?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I mean, I'm assuming that some. Lots of people have that idea, but somebody wanted to form an organization called Grow Smart Mean.

Nancy Smith:

It came back in 2003. There was a loosely formed group called Eco Eco Economy and the Ecology. Ted Kaufman was one of the leaders. He's just returned to our board actually will be coming on in 2016. Alan Karen was a piece of it. There were, I think, probably a dozen or so people. It focused in Freeport where they were seeing sprawl. Gross Mart Maine started as anti sprawl and then grew in 2006 to the point of releasing the Brookings Report, making Charting Maine's Future, where we brought in the Brookings Institution to look at really the big picture in Maine. If you're talking about sprawl as an issue, you're not talking to all of Maine. So much of Maine is changing without growth. So Charting Maine's future really looked at what is it we love about Maine? How do we keep it while strengthening the economy? And since then, that really has been the focus. We've kind of. We've gone beyond simply planning, but it really is about helping communities manage growth or change if there is no growth, rather than just react to it trying to empower Mainers to be able to make a difference in their own communities. So we do some community outreach. We do some events. We just finished our annual meeting, which built on the trip to Denmark, and we do Advocacy in Augusta, a little bit in D.C. but we're a staff of three, and we're very busy.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I would guess if you're taking on not only energy, but anything that is related to growing Maine in a mindful way. Right.

Nancy Smith:

And there's the overarching themes. I mean, you can talk about the silos of transportation and housing and infrastructure. And we are part of the Broadband Coalition, looking at how broadband can achieve that goal of a stronger economy, but in a way that really honors what we love about this place. But there are these overarching themes. Climate change is one. Aging in place. How do we help Mainers who want to age in their homes? But at the very least, if that's not possible, to be able to age in their own communities at the same time, one of the wonderful happenstances is that anything that you do to help seniors age and make the communities more attractive for them also attracts the working population because they, too, want walkable areas that are interesting and safe and great places to raise kids. So you'll hear a phrasing about aging in place eight to 80. It really is about all generations. So whether it's climate change or aging or workforce development, it reaches all of the issues that increase, incorporate how a community manages change and growth.

Sue Inches:

And as you can see from my bio, I'm now working on the broadband issue. And that absolutely is an issue about community, both public and private investment, and bringing Maine communities into the 21st century. So these are all really important issues. There's a lot of work to do, not only for Grossmart, but for lots of other people that are engaged in these issues.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. In addition to the broadband issue, you're working on solid waste and you're working on working waterfronts.

Sue Inches:

Well, no, those are things that I worked on in the past. And actually, Nancy and I have known each other for a long time because we both were in Augusta. Nancy was serving in the legislature. I was serving as deputy director of the state Planning office. And so that's where we're able to tackle a lot of these issues. And since then, Now Nancy's with GrowSmart, I'm with Tilson, but we're still working on community issues.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Okay, so then tell me what it is that you from taking the lead on these policy issues. Tell me what you brought into the future, into the work that you're doing now and the work that you're doing with Nancy and GrowSmart.

Sue Inches:

Well, I think one of the things that was really a great takeaway for me from the Denmark trip, which really answers this question. Is communities stepping up and investing themselves? In other words, there's a great feeling going on that probably no one is going to rescue us and take us there without us standing up and leading ourselves. A role for the private sector. But there's also a very important role for our communities. And that's what we're seeing happen here in Maine is the communities are making choices, they're coming together and they're making investments. So that's really the connection that I see. Whether that investment could be in a working waterfront investment, it could be broadband, it could be energy. So it could be many things depending. Not every community is the same. They all have different needs. So they're choosing where they want to go, but it's about them figuring out what their plans and then making those investments.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So how do you actually figure out what it is that a community needs and what they are motivated to do?

Nancy Smith:

That's not for us to decide.

Tyler Kidder:

Right.

Nancy Smith:

The key is you talk to the community. We have a program called Making Headway in youn Community and we go out to towns. This coming year we're going to be in a couple of towns in coastal down east and in Western Maine. You start with what is it you love about your community? What is it that brings people together? Sometimes it's the school, sometimes it's an old building, sometimes it's Main Street. You start with what they love and then you talk about, so what's missing? Where's the void? And oftentimes it's economic. So how do you strengthen the economy of that area in a way that keeps what you love? And that's how we do community outreach. From there we'll have advocacy because if there are barriers to issues, you'll move forward with that. But one of the lessons anybody working in Maine learns, if you come into a town and say, thank God I'm here, you're not going to get very far. It's about listening to them and then introducing a process. There are so many resource organizations across the state. There's government, quasi government, nonprofit, and people don't know about them. And so one of the things that growsmart is really good at is connecting and being able to let folks know. I had a community call, we did a half day meeting with some folks and then as follow up they called and said, well, we've gotten approval to hire an economic development director part time. Can you recommend someone? I said, well, have you ever talked to your council of governments? You're probably already paying dues and this is a regional governmental agency that works with communities on economic development. So those kinds of connections and helping them articulate what they love about their community and for people to recognize, if it's something you want to do and you're the only one pushing it, you're not going to get very far. But if you can talk to your neighbors and talk to people who are as different from you as possible and bring that group together, then you're going to be able to make headway, which is what we want for communities.

Sue Inches:

And I could add to that if you like. I think Nancy's right on about this. Communities are going to be leading themselves. We're not going to lead them.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Also.

Sue Inches:

One of the things that I've noticed in my experience is that usually there is someone at the local level who's a champion for whatever the cause is. For example, if it's creating a public boat ramp, there's somebody who really wants that boat ramp in the community. And that person usually rallies other people around that issue and starts to move it forward. So that's what we look for. We look for communities. And I do this in my work now with broadband. We look for communities that have leaders who are already activ for something that they want to move forward on. And then we provide some support, some resources. You know, in the case of broadband, we can provide cost benefit analysis to them, but it's really, they're leading themselves. And there's usually either a champion or several champions who are actively engaged in leading whatever that issue is.

Nancy Smith:

And what I love about Mainers, if you ask a Mainer, are you a leader, are you a champion, they will. Well, no, I'm not that. I just get things done. It's so fabulous. I mean, we're just salt of the earth, good boots on the ground, people who don't brag. So one of the things that we do is we have a website called makingheadway Me where you can find these resources and you can post success stories that you've had. And there's only about a dozen success stories up so far because Mainers don't brag. We don't think of ourselves as leaders or champions. And again, when people like sue and I come into a community, part of what we can do and is let people see themselves as a success. And if you find one little success and build on that, it gives people confidence and they keep moving forward. And that's the way change is going to happen. It's incremental. One of the phrases I use that is true and yet really Frustrating sometimes is you need to be bold and patient. You really need to have a big idea of what you want and be really happy with incremental steps, because that's what's going to have staying power.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I'm interested in the fact that you served four terms in the Maine State House of Representatives.

Nancy Smith:

Yes, I did.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

While working on your family's diversified livestock farm in Monmouth.

Nancy Smith:

Yes. While working part time as a forester. Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So when you talk about boots on the ground, you really know what it means to have boots on the ground at that time.

Nancy Smith:

I would do farm chores in the morning and then go into the legislature and come home and do farm chores to wrap up. It actually was a nice balance because in the legislature you get things done, but it takes a great deal of time and it's really hard to, you know, come home and say, I had a terrific meeting and it was a success. It was nice to balance that with sometimes the physicality of cleaning the barn, sometimes the satisfaction of feeding calves or moving the chickens. We had rotational grazing at that time. So I'm not on the farm anymore, but I still try to stay connected. I raised 25 meat birds in my backyard on Main street in Monmouth, and they're in the freezer. And I still try to do. How do you connect with local food? How do you raise your own food without actually gardening? And so between my chickens and my blackberries and peach trees, I'm learning how to do that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Sue, I'm interested in your background in part because you actually have a degree from the College of the Atlantic. Yes. Which is interesting to me because you must have been one of the earlier people to graduate. They haven't been in existence very long, have they?

Sue Inches:

That's right. I think the very first class was in 1975, and I graduated from the college in 1979, and I think there were 14 of us in my graduating class. So we were early adopters. And I'm just really pleased with the College of the Atlantic because as I actually have said in one of our alumni meetings, I said a degree from the College of the Atlantic has actually appreciated over time because when I first went there, people were like, college of the what? And now it's, you know, actually has a very strong identity in educating in ecology, which is human ecology, which is really about the interrelationships between human beings, development and the environment. So it's, you know, it couldn't be more appropriate today, you know, even more perhaps than in the 1970s. So, yeah, it was a great experience. It is A great experience to be part of that community.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you also joined CEI's board of directors in 2008 and you were the executive director for Habitat for Humanity of Maine. So your background, just you and Nancy both, what haven't you done?

Sue Inches:

That's a great question because as Nancy was talking about farming, I have also farmed. My husband and I did. We were really early adopters. We did a. A csa, although, which is community Supported Agriculture. That word hadn't been invented when we were doing it back in the 80s, but we did grow vegetables for 75 families for five years. We're not doing that now, but Maine is great that way. It gives you an opportunity to do a lot of things. And that's been really fun for me to be in a lot of different places. And I think all those experiences come together and inform what I'm doing today.

Nancy Smith:

Exactly.

Sue Inches:

Which is really, really great.

Nancy Smith:

I say my career path is not one that a guidance counselor would recomm to anyone. But I came to Maine, God 1981, at age 19, for a job interview with International Paper. And I worked for them for 13 years. I was a forest technician. I was overseeing logging jobs and doing boundary line maintenance and marking timber and planting trees. And I went from that to the family farm to serving in the legislature, did a little bit more forestry. And as sue said, that brought me perfectly to grow Smart Maine. I think bringing that rural life and a true respect for rural Maine to a statewide organization with its office in Portland balances beautifully. And when we talk about Maine and the challenge is some parts of Maine have too much growth too fast. We see it in Portland where there are people who want to slow it down while others are charging forward. And the rim counties, whether it's Washington County, Oxford, Aroostook county, they would take anything. And that's. It's a real risk for Maine. If people are willing to say any growth is good growth, any development is good development, we need to worry about what that means for the communities, but to do it in a way that's respectful of where that's coming from for those towns.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I can just tell sue that you have some things that you'd like to jump in and say.

Sue Inches:

Actually there weren't. I was listening to Nancy, but I guess this theme of you can do a lot of things in Maine, and another thing I love about Maine is you can make a real difference here. There isn't many, many, many layers before you get to people who have decision making authority. You can actually make a difference. An individual can actually step out in their community, make a big difference. I think the Denmark trip is a great example of that. When I thought about doing that project, it was a freelance effort. This was prior to Grossmart becoming part of it. And it just showed me that, you know, an individual can step out and do something and have a real impact. Because, you know, the 14 people that came along on that trip were really excited by it and are now, you know, dialoguing and moving ahead in their own areas to do things as a result of what they learned. And so, you know, that was something where, you know, just an idea by one person can have an impact statewide. So I like to encourage people to, you know, follow their dreams and realize that here in Maine, you can make a difference.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It's an interesting thing that you're describing, and that is sort of being open to what presents itself and being willing to make connections where previously they not only didn't exist, but might not have even seemed reasonable.

Sue Inches:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I mean, that's true.

Sue Inches:

I mean, Denmark, I didn't know if that was going to succeed or not. I needed 10 people to break even on it. I was right down to the wire, not knowing I had maybe seven or eight people signed up, and I wasn't sure if I was going to get the full roster. But it did, you know, obviously went over the line, and Nancy and her group were helpful on those last few people. So. Yes. So even if the idea seems like it's not feasible, I think it's worth pursuing it because. Because it's amazing how people will step up and be supportive in Maine as well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

One thing that I often kind of mentally struggle with is there seems to be a dichotomy between the lofty ideas of sustainability and ecosystem and then the, again, boots on the ground, the work required to actually move some of these things forward. And what I like about what you're describing is you're not saying, oh, well, here's something, some pie in the sky ideal that we're never going to be able to reach. You're saying, look, these things already exist. Let's kind of strengthen where you already are and move forward with them.

Nancy Smith:

You know, and it's funny as you're saying that, I'm thinking one of the phrases I'll use fairly often is just talking about duct tape and baling twine. That's how we farmed out of necessity and that pragmatic approach. I will say I'm pragmatic to a fault. What can we actually get done? But in order to get even that done, you've got to tie it to the bigger. The bigger vision, the bigger dream. And again, oftentimes it's, we want our children to raise our grandchildren near us. Had a conversation earlier this morning with a woman, and one of the things I mentioned was early on, one of the first things I did when I came to growsmart was go up to Aroostook county and just reconnect with, I knew folks from the Farm Bureau and just really get the word out about what GrowSmart Maine does and how it's relevant. And. And one of the women I spoke with, her kids were in southern Maine. And we got into the whole concept about whether there's a brain drain or not. And I said to her, really, this brain drain is a misnomer. Young people. It's not our best and brightest. There are some fabulous young people staying here, but when they're moving, they're moving to southern Maine. They're not leaving. And what rang through loud and clear is, for her, that was irrelevant. They weren't there for Sunday dinner. And that's where we talk about, I think, the frustration of trying to get a stronger economy up in, well, in the room counties, whether it's western, down eastern, northern Maine. Having our kids in southern Maine is good statewide, but not for the families that are in those areas. So how do we create opportunities for. Whether. Whether it's jobs or telecommuting or entrepreneurship so that they can have their jobs where they're raising them. And to Sue's work now, broadband is a huge piece of that. It's another infrastructure system that we have to figure out the right balance of public and private investments, whether you're in a dense area where there are customers or the rural areas where it's harder to make the investments, or you've got to get more creative with the technology in order to make it work. That's one of a dozen components that we need to be working on. There's no, you know the phrase, there's no silver bullet, there's silver buckshot. There are a dozen things that we should be doing or 30 things that should be done in Maine. They're probably being done. And again, one of the things I love is connecting people and saying, well, did you know that this is happening over here? And here's who you might want to talk to. It's to Sue's point about, you can make a difference in Maine. You can also connect with people easily and start taking what they've learned and use it in your community.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Sue what are the top three things that you would like to see happen in Maine over the next 10 years?

Sue Inches:

Now, that is a question I need to think about. I mean, one thing that I'd really like to see happen is for our university system to get on more solid ground. You know, they've been struggling with budget issues, they've been struggling with declining enrollments in some campuses. So. And education is such a fundamental piece for all of our economy and really statewide. So I'm just. I'm really hopeful, actually. There's some really good people working on it right now, but I'd like to see them not only get stabilized, but flourish and become a place that people look to as a place of excellence, where they want to go. So that would certainly be one of them. I'd have to think about the other two. I mean, I'm certainly working on broadband, and the issue there is that, that we're actually in the middle of what some people call the third industrial revolution, which is basically the next generation of communication technology and energy technology. And, you know, a lot of people are feeling that, you know, their Internet is fine today, and why would I need more? But actually, what's going to be coming very soon, I mean, we're talking two to five years, is something much bigger where, you know, doctor appointments are held online, where, you know, children in school have to do a lot of graphics and data and that sort of thing online. They're already getting there. But I mean, all this, all these things are going to go up a notch very shortly. And that's why I think towns are feeling some urgency to look into this issue. Because how can we in Maine be competitive? How can we attract businesses here, how can we attract younger people here if we don't have 21st century communications? And what's going on, if you look at the statistics and the trends, is that Maine was once at the forefront, but now we're actually falling behind as other areas of the country are investing more in their broadband technology. So that's another one. If we want to be more than just a vacation place, we're really going to need to broadly address the broadband issue. And even on the vacation side, what we're hearing is that people who own summer homes here, people who come up here to vacation, want really good communication so they can stay longer, contribute more to the economy, and have their life still, you know, working their communications, working while they're here. So I think this is a maybe another really important part of how we should be developing in the next 10 years.

Nancy Smith:

If we can answer that as a tag team, please.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, she's done two. I get the last one.

Nancy Smith:

I get the last. But I also want to go back to one of the things that was extraordinary here in Denmark was they recognized decades ago that as a rural economy with very few natural resources to exploit their word, they needed education. And there was a huge commitment. Was it 100 years ago or decades? It was a hundred years ago. That's what I thought. That sounded extraordinary. But they made that commitment and that decision a long time ago. And when. And you'll hear, well, what happens in Denmark won't work here. They've got to hire per capita. Well, let's look at their education commitment and see how that has played out in a small island population. So I wanted to add that to education. And I think given what we've already talked about, I think to a degree, the third thing that I want to see thrive in Maine is this focus on bilocal, on the rural economy, on local foods. It's expanding. People are working on local fiber. Think about where you're wood comes from. We're not going to have, and it's not healthy to seek a really big mill that's going to come in with 400 jobs if it comes. That's fabulous. But what's more realistic is that we build this again from the ground up. It's going to be the businesses that start with one or two people and go to 20 or maybe go to a 50 or 100. That's what we want. And those can be happening on farms, on value added, on the distribution systems that they need and the food system. I mean, it ties into the economy, it ties into climate change, it ties into making this a great place where people want to live. So if you look at broadband as one of the tools to get us there, natural resource sector, and that buying local ethic really getting stronger. And the third one about education, boy, if we did those in 10 years, Maine would be, and this is the key, Maine won't be a different place. Maine can still be Maine, but be stronger and healthier. Whether it's our communities or individual families or the businesses that we need to support all of this.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Nancy, what's the GrowSmart Maine website? GrowSmartMain.org org We've been speaking with Nancy Smith, who has been the executive director of GROSSMART Maine since 2010. She served four terms in the Maine State House of Representatives. And also with Susan Inches, who is a senior consultant and at Tulsan Technology where she works to help communities find solutions to their broadband needs. Thank you so much for all the work that you're doing and all the work that you've done. And I'm hoping that all of us will see what has happened, what you're hoping will happen in the next 10 years actually come to fruition. Absolutely.

Nancy Smith:

Thanks so much.

Sue Inches:

Thanks so much.

Nancy Smith:

Terrific.

Sue Inches:

Yep, we hope so too.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Putting new ideas into practice, or even not so new ideas into practice is an interesting role to play. And today I have the great opportunity to speak with an individual who's doing just that. This is Tyler Kidder, who is the Assistant Director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine. This summer, Tyler traveled to Denmark with Grossmart Maine to learn how the country has reduced its fossil fuel use to address climate change. Thanks so much for coming in today.

Tyler Kidder:

Thanks for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So the Assistant Director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine. That's a big title.

Tyler Kidder:

It is a big title. It's a lot of words.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It is a lot of words. So tell me, what does that mean in practice for you?

Tyler Kidder:

So basically, at USM here in Portland, as well as our two other campuses in Gorham and Lewiston, I'm responsible for operation and programmatic environmental sustainability. I do a fair amount of work directly with students, but also with the greater Portland community, Southern Maine community, and the entire university community employees, including staff and faculty, you know, all sorts of different kinds of things. And mostly we do our work around energy, water, pollution, waste, transportation, greenhouse gases and climate change.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And before we went on the air, you were telling me that your office is actually situated in facilities management. So there's a very practical aspect of what they're hoping that you're going to accomplish in your role.

Tyler Kidder:

Right. So I'm in facilities, which is great because I'm connected to the whole operations team as well as the campus designers and architects. And there's a lot of opportunity around operational change. So for Instance, we're about to install our first electric vehicle charger. And that's all facilities work. And then on the, you know, on the flip side, once it's in, there will be communications and promotional work which goes beyond my facilities work, but is included in my job description.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How did you get involved in this? What is your background?

Tyler Kidder:

I grew up in Northern Virginia and I spent a lot of time outside. I was always outside. As a little kid I was encouraged to be outside and also wanted to be outside. And I loved the ecosystem and how things interacted. And so when I was in school, high school, and then in college, I kept sort of gravitating back to the sciences. But I have a natural strengths and skills in communication. And so I was always looking for the intersection of the two. How do people interact with the environment? How do people and social systems interact with the ecosystem? And so in college I started down a sort of a pre med biology track, did a lot of ornithological, bird and entomological insect research, but then realized that what I really was most interested in was humans and their impact on the world. And so I bounced around for a long time. And then I moved to Maine in 2007 and I've lived here year round since then. And once I got here, I was not using my brain all that much. I was doing other things and sort of living paycheck to paycheck and I decided it's time. And so I got in touch with USM's environmental science department and I said I'm new here, but I could volunteer or TA or do anything you needed me to do. Are there any kind of opportunities for me to get engaged with the school and what you all are doing? And at that time I was so new to Maine that I didn't know that USM had three campuses. So it's actually communicating electronically with people on the Gorham campus, which yielded a job after a little while in dining services growing food in their greenhouse on the Gorham campus. So I had this awkward reverse commute out of the city that I had just fallen in love with. So then it became how can I get back to Portland and be doing more closer to home? And walking and biking to work was very important to me. So I launched from the dining services job into the job I currently have when it came available. And that was five years ago. So I worked. I've worked at USM for a total of six and a half years.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And your family has a main connection?

Tyler Kidder:

We do. My grandmother was born and Raised in Brooklyn, Maine, on the Blue Hill Peninsula. And her last name before she was married was Tyler. So that's my name.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And thus your name. Exactly.

Tyler Kidder:

And then my mother grew up in Maryland coming up to Maine every summer. And then me and my sister grew up in Northern Virginia coming up to Maine every summer.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So I'm interested in why it is that it became important for you to go with the GrowSmart team to Denmark. What relevance did that have to your personal and professional existence? I guess.

Tyler Kidder:

There were a lot of people that were invited to go on the trip and who couldn't go for a lot of reasons. And I think sue inches very carefully, kind of curated a diverse group. And then near the end, she had filled up most of the spots, and she had tried to get people from the university community to come, mostly through Orono, and they were either unable or disinterested or it was expensive. And so there was kind of a couple barriers to some people's entry, and there was also no precedent for it. People had a hard time understanding what it was really going to be like. But we now have President Glenn Cummings at the University of Southern Maine. He started in July, and as a new president, he has more sustainability, knowledge and interest than any of our previous presidents, at least in the time that I've worked at the university. He learned about the trip and strongly advocated for me to go. And it was sort of all coming together already, but at the last minute, someone wasn't able to attend, and so I got their slot and then I went. And it just was such a gift. And I'm so appreciative to Glenn for advocating for that and then for getting to know that group of people, like, what an opportunity it was. Some of the greatest thought leaders here in Maine, the people getting things done. And I think I also, and I think everybody on the trip would admit to this, I increased. Increased the age diversity a little bit.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You mean you're somewhat on the young side?

Tyler Kidder:

I'm the youngest person on the trip. Right, yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I won't out any of the other members of the team, I guess, since they're a little bit older than you. But how do you think that that actually added to not just by virtue of your age, but also your difference of experience? How do you think that that added to the group dynamic?

Tyler Kidder:

Well, it's interesting because I felt a little bit of hesitation going with sort of these big important people from the state, and I felt like, oh, you know, am I kind of in over my head or sort of that imposter syndrome that you get when you're like, am I really supposed to be at this table? Which I think happens a lot to young professionals. I think it happens a lot to women, anyone who feels slightly out of their league. But it was quickly. It just. It just totally fell into place. There was another woman, Erica Matseo, who was also on the trip, and she is a curriculum developer for Falmouth Schools. But I really filled the public education, higher ed research, sustainability, behavior change connection. I'm one of the few people on the trip that does programmatic behavior change. I work to change people's behavior. You know, we study what they do, we look at the barriers, design a program, implement it, tweak it, then celebrate it. And that's very different than what a lot of the other people on the trip do. They have finance or policy backgrounds, or they're entrepreneurs. And my role is much more around the sort of the logistical, practical side of how do we change people's minds?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So how do you change people's minds?

Tyler Kidder:

That's a good question. I feel like there's a lot of answers to that, and I don't necessarily know. And I think part of that comes back to what I was saying about my background, which is that I've always been really interested in the ecosystem, but I just have an innate sort of talent for communication. And it's empathetic communication. So it's finding a language, a vocabulary, a messaging system that works for your audience, and then delivering a message that makes sense to them, taking into consideration what they're going through, their knowledge base, their background, what's important to them and their goals. And so it's very much tailoring a message to whoever you're talking to. And it's slow. You know, it's slow and it's hard and it's. It works best one on one. But you don't have time. You know, I've got thousands of students at usm. I don't have time to meet with all of them one on one. So it's finding creative ways to speak to people in a language that makes sense to them.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So how would you explain, in a language that makes sense to us what you saw in Denmark and what we might be able to translate to the state of Maine?

Tyler Kidder:

There's a lot that's different about Denmark than here. And I think it's important to acknowledge that we're not going to look exactly like Denmark. And there are a lot of people that will suspend belief in the fact that we could change by saying we're never going to be Denmark. And it's true. So they're very flat, we're very hilly, they have a milder climate than we do. They're a very homogenous population. They generally have religion and race in common and a common European cultural history. We're very diverse, we're very big, they're very small, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the cool thing is that Denmark is a lot like Maine. So when you look at the whole country of the U.S. denmark's not like the country of us, but we are in size, shape and demography, very similar Maine to Denmark. And there's just a lot of really simple things that they, they have done. I think what's most important is what really came back time and time again in our visits and when we would question, well, how do you get people to do this? You know, how do you. And they just have a very strong stem. So science, technology, engineering and math, curriculum and protocol all through their learning. So when we're talking specifically about sustainability and climate change and climate adaptations, resiliency, they have a background in science allowing them to understand the program, not the program allowing them to understand the problem and understand the solutions. So Denmark is a design leader in windmills, but also things like Legos. And you know, they've been able to apply this advanced support of the STEM education through all sorts of parts of their economy and their culture. And there's no reason we can't do the same thing here in Maine. If we did some simple reinvestment in our educational system, if we did more creative, engaged learning opportunities where students were getting hands on experience and understanding what things meant. Actually, I give a shout out to King Middle School who is doing this work and they walk over to the USM campus and get tours and they're speaking about geothermal energy and they understand it. And they're talking about social change and isolation and they understand it. It's really refreshing because there are pockets of this being successful and I think on a larger level, more macro scale, you know, investing in STEM is one piece of it, but taking even a bigger step back. Danes have a ton of pride and Mainers have a ton of pride. And if there's one thing we should be proud of, it's our state and the natural beauty that we have and our work ethic. And so if we apply those two things and we look with a very objective eye, we would see that the factories that are closing that have also been pollution sources, the way we're starting to import oil or we're talking about, you know, all the time, how can we increase our amount of natural gas. Those things go against us supporting ourselves because they're imports. We can do better with biomass, solar, wind and title power. We should be investing our pride in our space back and aligning it with our Yankee ingenuity back into our state. And we have everything we need to do it. And that's not always been true. But the technology is there now because of people like the Danes who have developed it for us. So we don't lack technology, we don't lack the know how or the resources, we just lack the will.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, that last one's an interesting one because for me as a family practice doctor who deals with behavior change all the time on a sort of one on one basis, there's not a one key. There's not a. There's not. Okay, I'm going to tell you the right words and you are going to change your behavior. And if you're talking about doing something on a statewide level, say, what are some things that approaches you might take? I guess so that you can kind of, I guess get a lot of people excited, get a lot of people to change, to move their will in a positive direction.

Tyler Kidder:

Well, I think one way that people make changes is from hearing different viewpoints from their peers, colleagues, family members, neighbors. So running a successful grassroots campaign of any style revolves basically around knocking on doors. But you have to fire up the base so they want to knock on doors. And there is a lot of that happening. But you're right in that climate change and sustainability in general is kind of complicated. And it's not like, oh, just start riding your bike and then it'll solve everything. What we do here in the states, and I suspect people do it elsewhere, is they focus on what individual actions they can take. But really we're talking about system change and that's much more difficult. But we get there by interacting with our legislators and our senators, by being involved in our communities. And I think community building and rejecting isolationism is super important right now. Many people spend a lot of time listening to the radio or watching TV or watching things on the Internet, and they watch things that validate the thoughts they already have. But when you're thrust out into the community and you're going to potlucks and events that happen around soccer games, whatever it is, you're exposed to other people's thoughts. And so when we can encourage people to get out and talk amongst themselves and connect, that's when the good stuff comes back around and when we're reminded that we shouldn't live in fear and we should be doing these things. And the isolation is just like an epidemic almost where people are more and more validating their own thoughts and feelings and around all sorts of issues. We see it on the political spectrum all the time. And it's this, this issue is not, is not unique to that and around sustainability, health and wellness. I think it's important to remind people that like, they will feel better. And I know that's super simple and you can tell a smoker that they should stop smoking and then they don't because it's like a lifestyle and a habit and there's a lot of other factors. But there's a reason we haven't been successful at this yet. And that's because it is super complicated. And we're bombarded by other messaging and by branding and marketing and we forget that the simplest fun can be free and at home and with other people. I digress, but I think what you're asking is how do we change people's minds on an individual level so that we can affect the system change? And that just has to be a human to human message that makes sense to them. And whether it's saying something, when we talk about sustainability, we want to remind people your kids are going to inherit this. And if they can't buy fish or buy lobster here in Maine because the lobster industry has moved up to Canada, if they can't go safely outside without getting ticks, these are climate change problems. And these are things that each individual doesn't necessarily need to do something about in terms of riding their bike to work or buying a Prius. But we have unprecedented connection to our state representatives and senators in Maine because we have such a small population, they're very accessible. I had my state senator at my house last week. So leveraging that makes Maine prime for real system change. And also the fact that we're rugged individuals, we're pioneer folk who like to do our own thing and don't like to be told what to do. And we like things that are created in state better than things that are created anywhere else else. And all of that is very in line with the goals, the greater goals of sustainability and climate change resilience.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You bring up a point that I want to just explore a tiny bit. And that is the fact that sort of a. It's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy where we reinforce whatever ideas it is that we currently hold. And I think that one of the things that I have struggled with over Time is we live in this era of, I guess, really significant judgment of others. And this is, I believe, having been interested in the ecological movement for a long time and the sustainability movement for a long time, and the wellness movement for a long time, people don't respond well to that. People do not respond well to having somebody come in and say, you are bad, you should change because you are bad. But what you're describing isn't that you're not saying, oh, you bad people do things differently because you're ruining the planet. And I've got to think that that's going to be more successful in the long run.

Tyler Kidder:

Very good observation, because it's very intentional. And I think the environmental movement has a bad rep because it is sort of grandstanding in a way. It can seem very socially righteous in that I'm choosing to abstain from eating meat, or I'm choosing to not buy anything that's not locally made or, you know, there's like many individual choices we can make that have a, that send a message about what we value. And it's just as easy to flip it and say, because you don't abstain from meat, you are a bad person. And that's the power of our current system, which focuses on the individual, is you can spend a lot of time and energy basically wasting time and energy. You can waste a lot of time and energy by obsessing and trying to make yourself judgment free in terms of others. So you want to not be negatively judged by anybody. And a great example is like, I would just run myself ragged trying to bike to work every day. And it just didn't make sense every day. It didn't make sense every day. I have a car. Like, I didn't need to be doing it every day. And also, so I could bike to work, I could bike everywhere I need to go for the next 75 years of my life. And it will not solve climate change. So I think that removing judgment on the individual level is hugely important for getting people who might feel differently to feel the way you feel, which is don't criminalize them, don't make them feel bad for their choices, and also use their choices as a point, as a moment of learning, and be like, oh, I try and ride my bike, but I don't always do it. And if they're like, well, I only drive an suv, and you'd be like, well, that's okay, we can still be friends because you might be a lovely human and maybe you have an SUV because you have a huge catering business, or, you know, seven children. I don't. I can't judge you based on why you might drive what you drive. And at the end of the day, you switching to a hybrid, it's not going to save the world. So we need to not be petty, we need to not be judgy. We need to elevate above that and try and work at the system level.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I definitely relate to what you're saying, and I found that it became most difficult for me when I went from being one person to being the mother of three people and married to somebody else. At that point. These are other humans with their own minds and their own ideas about how they want to do things. And it doesn't really matter whether you think that you're going to do A, B, C, D or E, and you're going to get some sort of outcome. They're still going to. They're still going to proceed along their own path. And I think if you broaden that out to your larger family, your community, then I think there is a way to kind of move forward peacefully in the world and also impact change.

Tyler Kidder:

And being a model is one of the best things you can do. Because I know when I meet people and they're doing something, I meet them at an event or I find out that they do something, I'm much more likely to consider doing it myself if I value what they value and if I identify with them. And so I try and walk the walk as much as I can, but not be judgmental when I'm having conversations with people. Because you're right, it doesn't get you anywhere. It's almost like, you know, being a missionary and trying to invite people into your religion, which you firmly believe in, but which they have no context for. And, you know, I don't know how successful that usually is, but I don't want to.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I don't want to give anybody who might be a really successful missionary out

Tyler Kidder:

there who's listening a hard time. We want to know your sales pitch.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

There you go.

Tyler Kidder:

We could probably use it. There you go.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I am fascinated by this conversation, and I know that there are probably people out there who are interested in the work that you are doing. As the Assistant Director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Maine, can you tell me how they might find out more?

Tyler Kidder:

You can learn more by visiting our website, and it's easiest to find it by googling. University of Southern Maine Sustainability.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I appreciate the time that you have taken today to come and, and speak with us about the work that you're doing. We've been talking with Tyler Kidder, who is the Assistant Director for Sustainable Programs at the University of Southern Maine. Thank you for the change you are making in the world and thank you for going to Denmark and learning more about what they're doing with energy over there. And I'm sure we'll hear more from you in the future.

Tyler Kidder:

Thanks for having me. This was great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

have been listening to LoveMain radio show number 227, Growth and Sustainability. Our guests have included Nancy Smith, Susan Inches, and Tyler Kidder. We love to hear from you, so please let us know what you think of lovemain Radio. We welcome your suggestions for future shows. Also let our sponsors know that you have heard about them here. We are privileged that they enable us to bring Lovemain radio to you each week. This is Dr. Lisa Bellaio. I hope that you have enjoyed our Growth and Sustainability show. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe to our podcast and take a moment to give us feedback on it. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your day. May you have a bountiful life.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Sam.

Tyler Kidder:

She said Baby I'm sleeping.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

With secrets I'm banking.

Nancy Smith:

Will you play with me? 1, 2, 3.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Will you sleep with me?

Nancy Smith:

1, 2, 3.

Tyler Kidder:

1, 2, 3.