Happy Lawns, Healthy Waters #243

Amy Witt:

Too much fertilizer can impact the bays and our lakes, and too much pesticides are going to impact our beneficial insects.

Ivy Frignoca:

The public has become much more aware that even though we live in a state where we think we're in this totally clean environment, that these are real threats and they want to do something about it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to Love Maine radio show number 243, happy lawns, healthy waters, airing for the first time on Sunday, May 15, 2016 in Maine. We are highly aware that what we do with our little corner of the planet has a direct impact on the greater world around us. Today we explore the topic of healthy lawns and the relationship with local waters and the ecosystem at large. Our guests include Amy Witt and Frank Wertheimer of the University of Maine Cooperative Extension and Mary Cirullo and Ivy Frignoca of Friends of Casco Bay. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Today we're going to speak about the growing of green things. It's actually one of my topics that I one of my favorite topics, I should say, although I always tell people I do not have a particularly green thumb, but I like the idea of it. So I'm going to talk with two individuals who do hopefully have all 10 of their fingers quite green. One of them is Amy Witt, who is the home horticulturist at the University of Maine Cooperative Extension in Cumberland county and also Frank Wertheim, who is an Associate Extension professor of agriculture and Horticulture, which with the University of Maine Cooperative Extension based in York County. Thanks for coming in today.

Amy Witt:

Thanks for having us.

Frank Wertheim:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So one of the things that I like about the conversation we're going to have is that most of us have access to some bit of greenery in our lives. Maybe we live in an apartment, maybe we live in a condo, but most of us have access to a spot of lawn. And so having a healthy lawn, which is one of the things we're going to discuss, is kind of a topic that really everybody should be aware of. Tell me, Frank, what is it about having a safe and healthy lawn that has appealed to you, having worked in this, worked with the Cooperative Extension for the last almost 30 years?

Frank Wertheim:

Yeah. You know, as I look back on the number of years I've been in Maine and seen the increase in proliferation of lawn care companies that are focused on several steps of pesticide and fertilizer management, many of which, you know, sometimes are applied whether pest is there or not. And, but not only that, through advertising. Even if you don't hire a lawn care company, you know, people are, a lot of people are convinced they need to be on these five step programs, et cetera. And so as you go around, you see some of these beautiful, lush lawns, you realize, you know, what the inputs are to create that and how it just becomes a bit of a vicious cycle because once you get a lawn adjusted to that, it always has to be on that. But, you know, there are ways to have a really nice lawn without all those inputs. And, you know, and that's what really what we see our work and is getting the mission out to that, you know, without excessive irrigation and excessive fertilizer and pesticide inputs, you can still have a nice lawn. But, you know, lawns are a funny thing. And everybody, you know, it's part of the American culture, and some people just has to look a certain way and others don't mind if there's dandelions and clovers in it. So people are all over the place, but they feel very strongly about what they believe in with their lawns.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Amy, what is your intersection with having a safe and healthy lawn?

Amy Witt:

I mean, I agree with what Frank said. And also, I mean, a healthy lawn starts with healthy soil. So I think people need to really look at too, what's going on with their soil. But people use lawns to play on, to have their pets on, to walk on. So it's important that you have a healthy lawn so, because it's going to impact you and perhaps your health if you are using a lot of pesticides and the fertilizers Too much fertilizer can impact the bays and our lakes, and too much pesticides are going to impact our beneficial insects. So you really need to think about what are you doing to get that healthy lawn? And can you perhaps live with a lawn that is not necessarily a monoculture, but has a lot of interesting colors to it and some other plant material such as your clover and your violets?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So when you say monoculture, you mean a uniformly appearing.

Amy Witt:

Uniformly appearing, exactly. And it's just grass. And there are purposes for grass and for a lawn. But as Frank said too, there are ways to get one without a lot of extra inputs.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, Frank, you talked about inputs, right? Define inputs for us

Frank Wertheim:

fertilizers. You know, in some of these five step programs, they're fertilizing four or five times a year and then with other products like weed and feed in them, you know, depending on the, on the time of year in which step of the, of the particular program that you're in, you know, and lawns do need, do need fertility. But there's, you know, what a lot of people skip is really knowing what the healthy conditions are for turf to exist in. And a lot of times when I get like a call at the cooperative extension office saying, I've got this weed in my lawn, how, how do I kill it? I kind of take a deep breath and I try to get them to think about the grass from the lawn's perspective. In other words, I could recommend an herbicide that would kill this weed, whatever it was, but that's going to create a vacuum, and nature abhors a vacuum. And with that vacuum created, you know, what the weeds are telling you is that conditions aren't right there for turf, so weeds will just come right back in. But if you do a university soil test and know what your PH is and your nutrient level is, just a lot of times just by getting the ph right, a lot of those grasses that are there, they're not growing well. But the weeds can grow fine at acidic pHs. So they will start to come back just from agricultural lime, which is, you know, organic, you know, natural, naturally mined product.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

The lawn historically has been a sign of wealth. We started with people, they needed to have food, so they grew gardens on their plots of ground. They weren't putting out lush greens so that their kids could play soccer. And my kids played soccer on my lawn. So I'm not denigrating that in any way, but we have come over time to believe that it is, it is a necessary sign of success in some ways. But maybe it's a sign whose time is starting to fade.

Frank Wertheim:

Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I think that there is a shift in the culture along with the local foods movement. I think the people that are on board with local foods movement and what goes into their food are also concerned about their yards. And, you know, we're seeing in our programming a lot of interest in organic methods and low input methods and in other means. So it. There is a societal shift happening, but lawns are still a status symbol and uncertain houses and depending on the individual and they're, you know, what, how tuned in they are or not. I mean, some people just don't really think about it. They just want a green lawn and don't think about what the consequences of some of those inputs may be.

Amy Witt:

And yes, some people too are looking at, I want to be able to grow my own food and what space do I have. And I have this big lawn and I don't need all of that lawn space. That would be a good space to put in a garden, to put it into production. And more and more people are thinking too about pollinators and how they impact growing food, but, you know, a lot of other things. So it's more and more people are getting into gardening. I mean, we've seen quite a surge in that in the last few years and producing their own food and preserving their own food and also to trying to preserve the pollinators like the monarchs. And people are noticing, you know, there aren't as many monarchs as there have been in the past and there aren't as many other pollinators. So what can I do? And a lawn isn't necessarily going to support that. You need other plant material.

Frank Wertheim:

One of the things to point out this time of year, because we're in the spring now and pretty soon things are going to be greening up. And the very first, one of the very first flowers that bees feed on are dandelions. Dandelion flowers. And you know, the bees are in a very critical phase at that time of the year, and they're basically on the verge of starvation because they've made it through the hive and their storage supplies all winter and they go out and they forage. And so if you allow some dandelions to go in your lawn and some clovers, especially the dandelions, because they're the first, the first species to flower, you're actually really helping the pollinators. So by maybe taking a fresh look at dandelions as not the enemy, we

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

could also create ground cover out of things other than straightforward green grass. I know that there are many people who are listening who have children and their children maybe want to play soccer out front or out back. And so there is a reason to have a place for kids to play. But we want it to be safe so we can plant other things that will cover the ground just as well.

Mary Cerullo:

Correct.

Amy Witt:

So there are all kinds of ground covers that. And clover. Actually, clover used to be part of people's lawns back in the 50s when suburbia was kind of getting started on Long island in New York. So there was clover seed incorporated into the lawn seed. But you've got.

Frank Wertheim:

And clover also fixes nitrogen.

Amy Witt:

Clover fixes nitrogen.

Frank Wertheim:

It also provides pollen, reduces your fertilizer demand if you have clovers in your lawn.

Amy Witt:

And I also think. And I'll get a lot of calls from people who have a lot of moss and so they want to get rid of it. And a lot of times the moss is in a shady area. Grass doesn't really grow very well in a shady area without a lot of inputs. And moss, there are so many different kinds of mosses and it is pretty, pretty sturdy stuff and it's beautiful. So I try to encourage people to, you know, why don't you keep it or reconsider. But. And there are all kinds of herbs like thyme and some other herbs that are used like in between stepping stones and that kind of thing that people put down. So there are all kinds of options.

Frank Wertheim:

If I could give a shameless plug. Amy and I are both involved in a statewide collaboration called Yardscaping. And it was born out of the Bayscaper program that started here in Casco Bay. And. And Gary Fish, currently with the main board of Pesticide Control, is kind of our yardscaping godfather and who heads up this program. But there's many of us involved. And on their website, yardscaping.org there's a grass link and within that there's a seed source link that look all low input seeds and lawn de Fleurs and herbal lawns and all kinds of alternatives. But then there are also there's a. Alan Sterling and Lothrop, which is a wonderful Maine seed company, also puts out a seed called that he named in collaboration with us, the yardscaping mixture. And what's wonderful about that is if you do, if you don't want a Lawn de Fleurs and you don't want clovers, but you want lawn that can stay green and not need as many inputs, these new species that have been bred and the rscaping mix is just one of them. The Kentucky bluegrasses that are in them, for example, have a lot less demand for nitrogen. One of the big reasons for all that fertilizer is because Kentucky bluegrass is a hungry plant. And so by breeding new Kentucky blues that don't require as much nitrogen, and then with that, the fescues that are in there, in the perennial rye grasses have this beneficial relationship with a microbe. It's called endophytes. And one of the I won't get into endophytes, but one of the advantages for that is it gives it natural insect toleration to the surface feeding insects. It won't, it won't get at your white grubs, but the like thing, things like sod web worms that are surface feeding it will give you natural repellent and it gives you extra drought tolerance. So by using these mixtures, you can build in some actual insect fighting and reduce your fertilizer needs right off the top. And it's really pretty easy, even if you've got an old lawn you can overseed to reintroduce some of these species. So that yardscaping website has a lot of really good information on it.

Mary Cerullo:

Right.

Amy Witt:

And it includes tips about making sure you water deeply, but less frequently. So that you want to really encourage the root for the lawn. You want to mow high, so three inches. You want to, if you're going to fertilize, besides doing a fertile soil test, you want to wait until the end of the summer. So late summer, early fall. Whereas now this time of year we get a lot of calls and people are ready to fertilize now, but the soil really isn't warm enough. They're usually pretty wet. So the just not a good time. The best time is later in the season. And also a good time to reseed or put in a new lawn is also later in the season when the soils are warmer and you can have a more consistent kind of rainfall. So those are also things that the yardscaping program reinforces to people.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Isn't there also some conversation in the fall about not necessarily raking up every single leaf that falls on the ground? And whatever leaves you do rake up, put them into a compost pile or compost system. These seem like other important considerations.

Amy Witt:

They are. I mean, and besides maybe not raking the leaves, but having a mulching blade on your lawnmower and shredding the leaves and keeping them in place and they're then putting that organic matter back into the soil. The same with your Lawn clippings. So if you're out mowing, instead of, instead of bagging it again, a mulching blade on your mower and just mulching it and keeping it in place to add back the organic matter. If you are going to rake the leaves, if that's something that really, you really love to do, you can rake them and then, yes, incorporate them into your compost pile kind of a little bit at a time. You want to keep the ratio of nitrogen to carbon to nitrogen to 30 to 1. And it's better to shred them just because they'll decompose.

Frank Wertheim:

I also like to work some of the leaves into my vegetable garden in the fall because it's a great way to stimulate the microbes and the worms in the soil to improve the soil and you'll get that fertility benefit the following year.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Amy, you work in Cumberland county and Frank, you work in York County. What's going on in your county from a cooperative extension service availability?

Frank Wertheim:

I mean, Amy and I work in a lot of the same program areas and even though, you know, I'm York county and Amy's Cumberland county, the lines are, you know, are kind of blurred. And so I do, we both do statewide and beyond programming as well. So I think, you know, we don't have a Tidewater Gardens initiative the way Amy does, but actually at Wells Estuarium Research Reserve, we've had a collaboration with them for many years and we have a demonstration garden of landscaping with native Maine plants. And then we also have a vegetable garden there called the All Seasons Garden that we're also growing for Maine Harvest for Hunger. And also we're doing a Three Sisters project that one of our volunteers has spearheaded with corn, pumpkins, corn, squash and beans. And then they're using the ornamental part for the Laud Home Farms annual Pumpkin Fiddle Festival as decorations. So we, you know, the garden has become a place also for teaching, public workshops and for learning. And you know, the native garden is kind of a self guided tour thing and we've got, we've done a really nice job in the last year of labeling. So with common names and scientific names of the native plants that you have there, you know, and one, one of the other really positive things about, about that is native plants, because they evolved here generally speaking, have a less of a, of a pest profile, so they're less likely to be attacked and then need all these other inputs to, to keep them from being eaten by whatever. And some of them are quite beautiful. And so some people are starting to take a New look at landscaping with native plants. I'm certainly not a purist about it. I have some beautiful non native plants, but it can also help us to avoid accidentally introducing invasive species.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You've mentioned the Maine Harvest for Hunger. What about the Maine Hunger Dialogue?

Frank Wertheim:

Yeah, the main hunger dialogue. Amy and I are both on the, on the committee for that. And in 2014 was the first annual main hunger dialogue. And so we've had two now. And this came about through an organization that we've been to national and international summits called the Universities Fighting World Hunger. And we got interested in that from our main Harvest for Hunger work. And through that we started hearing about these state hunger dialogues. And at the time there had only been two in the nation, one in Kansas and one in North Carolina. And when we went to the summit that year, they had a workshop on how to do hunger dialogue. And so Amy and I sat in and they were all kind of looking at us and said, oh yeah, Maine, you've got to do one. And we said, okay. We don't know what we're doing, but okay. And we gave ourselves 18 months. And so what it is, is we reach out to all colleges and universities within a state. So here in Maine, it was the community colleges, the tire humane system, and then the private Schooly, Bates, Bowden, Kaplan, you know, every university in Maine and invited staff and students to come together for a day and a half to learn about hunger, to learn about programs that are going on in the state. But then also it's for them to assess what's happening on their campuses and share that. And then we were able to get funding to sponsor these, what we call these mini grants. And then so during the day and a half, we encouraged the groups to meet in their campuses and start outlining potential projects and then have an application deadline for these mini grants about a month after the hunger Dialogue. And so in 2014, we attracted 85 participants, students and staff from 16 campuses in Maine, which we thought was really, we were really excited about. And then this year we hit our capacity at 119 campuses and one high school. And we funded 14 mini grants following this year's hunger Dialogue. And I was at a an opening yesterday for York County Community College, used their funding to support a food pantry on campus. And one of the things I've learned and I've been astounded about is that the level of food insecurity on college campuses, especially the commuter schools and community colleges.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, it sounds like we have to have another show just about hunger Dialogue Project. How can people find out about the work that each of you does with the University of Maine Cooperative Extension?

Amy Witt:

I would say through our websites. And so there's the umaine website under Cooperative Extension and then also Cumberland County Extension and York County Extension also have their own websites and Facebook pages. So we put a lot out on social media.

Frank Wertheim:

But if you Google the Maine Hunger Dialogue or Google Maine Harvest for Hunger, you will hit on those websites. And, you know, we'll also put in a plug for Maine Harvest for Hunger as we're into spring, because what we do is we recruit community gardens, home gardeners, anybody that's willing to grow a little extra, and then we help to link them with their local food pantry. We also do a lot of networking with the farmers. And some of our master gardener volunteers get organized into gleaning teams and go out and work on those farms. So I, you know, I would, I would encourage people that are listening to, to check that out. And, you know, now that it's early in the season, maybe this is something you could get involved in this year.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how can they read the piece that you wrote about yardscaping and more about the yardscaping program?

Frank Wertheim:

Well, I think you're referring to the fact sheet I wrote on. I'm not even sure I'm going to get the title right. Maintaining a low input healthy lawn that you can get to through the publications page on our website, along with some videos. There's a lot of YouTube videos too that other people have done and a lot of other resources. So if you get into the publications page and go to the Home garden link, you'll see all kinds of information sheets that are, as Amy said, a lot of them are free downloads.

Amy Witt:

And the main yardscaping site also has wonderful information. Information, yeah.

Frank Wertheim:

Yardscaping.org

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

well, we could keep talking for a long time. You guys have, there's a wealth of knowledge that you both have. And I think this is just going to start piquing people's interest. So I encourage people who are listening, whether you're interested in the Maine Harvest for Hunger or the Maine Hunger Dialogue or the University of Maine Cooperative Extension or yardscaping, you know, go in any direction with any of these things, but there's a lot going on. I really give you so much credit for the work that you're doing and I appreciate your taking the time to come in and talk with us today. We've been speaking with Amy Witt, who is the home horticulturist at the University of Maine Cooperative Extension and also Frank Wertheim, who is an Associate Extension professor of Agriculture and Horticulture with the University of Maine Cooperative Extension, Amy based in Cumberland county and Frank based in York County. Thanks so much for coming in.

Amy Witt:

Thank you for having us.

Frank Wertheim:

Thank you very much.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

have with us in the studio one individual that I've spoken with before who I thought very highly of, so I was very happy to bring her back. And another individual who I am just meeting. The first individual is Mary Cirullo who is an award winning author of 21 nonfiction children's books on the ocean as well as a handbook for teachers on using children's literature in the science classroom. Her latest book is Shark Expedition. Mary is the Associate Director of Friends of Casca Bay and has over 40 years experience as a science translator. As such, she has interpreted marine issues for the general public and for marine user groups through the New England Aquarium, the Maine New Hampshire Sea Grant College Program, the Great Bay National Estuarine Reserve in New Hampshire and the Gulf of Maine Research Institute. Thanks for coming back in Mary.

Mary Cerullo:

Thanks for having me back.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Ivy Franjoca is the Casco Bay Keeper. Before her role with Friends of Casco Bay, Ivy worked with the Conservation Law foundation on issues facing Maine's marine waters. She served as the ocean's clean water and clean air advocate throughout New England. Her professional experience also includes teaching marine biology and ecology, interpreting natural history, designing policies to protect and promote Vermont State parks and forests, and advocating for stronger environmental protections for Lake Champlain. Thanks for coming in for the first time Ivy.

Ivy Frignoca:

Thanks for having me and you and

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I, of course, know each other because many moons ago I knew you and you were a student at the University of Maine School of Law.

Ivy Frignoca:

Yes, yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Which was actually because we were talking about. We were looking at the picture of my son, who was 22 when he was a baby when you graduated. So that's like two decades ago. You and I know each other from that long ago.

Ivy Frignoca:

Thanks for sharing that information with the public.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, but, you know, you were just a baby when you went through, so obviously you're still quite young. And I'm actually really glad to have the both of you in because I think Friends of Casco Bay is doing such great work.

Mary Cerullo:

Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We know that, Mary, you came in and you spoke with us before about what was happening, and Ivy, you hadn't yet joined, but you were on the horizon. So I'm really happy that you came in and decided that you could spend a few minutes with us.

Ivy Frignoca:

I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So you went from the Conservation Law foundation to. To this role as the Casco Bay keeper. What was the draw for you?

Ivy Frignoca:

Well, the draw was in my prior job. I worked all over New England on a variety of issues. My passion is the ocean and water quality issues. And the particular draw is this is a once in a lifetime position. It's a vocation to be a waterkeeper, not just a job. And it was a huge draw to work for Friends of Casco Bay. It's an incredible team of educators and scientists and to be in house working with them so that anything that I was advocating for was informed by our science, or we could look at issues and then develop our science protocols. And I get to work with people like Mary to reach out to the public and educate people about the issues that we're working on. Everything was a draw, basically about the position.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I can certainly understand why you'd want to work with Mary, because I think she's quite wonderful as well. I'm interested in the work specifically that because we're now it's springtime, we're heading into a season where people are starting to think about perhaps their landscape. I'm interested in what you're doing with lawns and safe lawns.

Mary Cerullo:

We have had a program, I'm almost embarrassed to say, for 18 years now, called bayscaping, trying to get people to reduce dependence on fertilizers and pesticides. And as Ivy said, the research we're doing has backed up the fact that nitrogen from fertilizers and other sources, when it washes into the bay. It creates real problems because, like on land, it fertilizes the green stuff. In the ocean, some of which comes out onto bays and coves, is this green slime of algae. And when that algae dies, it not only uses up the oxygen as it decomposes, it also puts in carbon dioxide into the water, which is actually making our mudflats, our shallow water areas, more acidic, which is hard on shellfish. And we've also tested for pesticides as they enter the bay and found it all around Casco Bay going into the water. So our position has been, let's keep it out of the water. Trying to give people alternative ways of taking care of basically their lawns, because things wash off the lawns more than off your gardens or, you know, under the duff, under trees. So that has been an ongoing program. We give workshops and materials and things like that. But after 18 years, the use of lawn chemicals really has decreased very little. Now communities are taking it into their own hands. There's all these citizen groups that are advocating for ordinances. Places like Harpswell, which just passed at its town meeting an ordinance restricting the use of or banning the use of neonictotoids, the bee killing chemicals, banning spraying near the shore, and the use of fertilizer and pesticides in the shoreland zone. South Portland just had a first reading for its ordinance, which is going to be a sweeping ban on the use of pesticides. And then they're going to get to fertilizers after that, but they're gonna ban it. I'm pretty sure it'll pass first after a year of education, they'll ban it on public properties, including their municipal golf course, except for their T areas, because they really haven't come up with a way of dealing with keeping those greens weed free and perfect for putting yet. But they're gonna work on it. The year after that. They're going to ban it on, on private property, and then a year after that make sure that all these things are working. And they've tried to include all sorts of ways of dealing with issues as they arrive, as they arise, so that people will adapt, will first be educated, adapt, and then they'll adapt the ordinance as it goes. So it's really going to be an interesting ordinance, which I think a lot of other communities are already looking at for the themselves.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Ivy, you've spent time in Vermont as well, and you've done work with Lake Champlain. What do you see as the, I guess, similarities and differences between the two states?

Ivy Frignoca:

Are you talking asking me with respect to the water quality issues that I've worked.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Water quality and environmental issues.

Ivy Frignoca:

So I'm going to focus on my work with Lake Champlain and with Casco Bay. One of the big similarities is that Lake Champlain is now an impaired water body, and it's listed with the federal government as a water body that's not meeting water quality standards. And that's because of all the nutrients that have been loaded into it. And in fresh water, it's phosphorus. That's the fertilizer. In salt water, like in Casco Bay, it's nitrogen. So there's a parallel in the issues that we're dealing with in terms of how do we reduce the sources of these fertilizers that are getting into the water bodies and impairing them for the uses that they're naturally intended for and the uses that people make of them. The difference is that in a freshwater body, where you're not dealing with tides, you're not dealing with influx of. Of waters with different types of salinity, you can measure what's going on and craft solutions in a more straightforward manner. And I'm not saying that it's easy solutions. It's not an easy solution in Vermont because a lot of the fertilizers are coming from farms, and they're trying to figure out affordable ways for farmers to deal with reducing the runoff that's contributing to Lake Champlain's demise. Here, our scientists were grappling with, okay, where is this nitrogen coming from? What happens when you have more fresh water carrying more into the bay? What happens when the level of salinity changes? How is it impacted with rising sea level and rising temperature of the salt water? It's just so very, very complicated, the science and what we're trying to do, that one of the best solutions that we can come up with, which is simple, is to reduce the nitrogen going into the bay in the first place. We know it's bad, and trying to measure how bad it is or where it's having the worst impact is just a much more complicated scientific equation.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Now, obviously, you focus on Casco Bay because you are friends of Casco Bay. But we do have a large number of freshwater sources throughout the state. We have Sebago Lake just in southern Maine, for example. But we have lakes, we have rivers, and so there is actually an impact. And I'm sure that there must be a connection between what's going on inland and what's going on out here. When you get to the end of the river, say, as it empties out into the bay. What are you doing about that?

Ivy Frignoca:

So I'll answer and then if Mary has anything to add, I'd like to make sure she has an opportunity to answer too. So there's two things that we do as an organization. First off, we look at what's going on in the entire watershed. So your question was really astute because we are talking about what are all these different inputs and what's going on. Because we are a limited staff, sometimes we address those watershed wide issues by being part of partnerships or coalitions with other organizations who have focuses in different parts of the watershed so that we can work together, not duplicate work efforts and make sure that together as teams, we're doing the best job to clean the water for everyone in the watershed. And we do the same thing up and down the coast because as, as you can imagine, Casco Bay is just part of the coast of Maine. And so many of these issues affect all of coastal Maine. So we have partnerships with other organizations up and down the coast. And one of the most exciting right now is a partnership that we put together with a couple other nonprofits called the Maine Ocean and Coastal Acidification Partnership, where we're working with researchers up and down the coast to fully understand coastal acidification and what we can do to protect our shellfish populations. Mary, do you want to add anything to that?

Mary Cerullo:

I was just saying, you know, talking about partnerships, we have a really large, well trained corps of water quality monitors who are volunteers. And to your point where they have found the highest concentration of nitrogen coming into the bay is at those river mouths. So that tells us that the sources are coming from land. So it's not only professional associates that we work with, but the citizen scientists are a big part of our program as well. I think is really unique and pretty exciting that people who aren't scientists can actually contribute data that is used by the state, by other researchers actually submitted to Congress as part of our Clean Water act requirements. So yeah, it's a great coalition.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I have some significant worries about what pesticides do to human health. So I think it was probably 10 years ago I wrote an op ed for a local paper about pesticide use on playing fields. And it was interesting because a few people would connect in and say, oh, I've been thinking about that, but not many. And mostly it was just sort of a vast silence. And it's good that I guess nobody was fighting with me. But on the other hand, it feels like now people are really willing to engage. Now there's not that vast silence. Now people are finally saying, okay, yeah, maybe we should be careful about pesticide application because our children are going to be playing on these fields or we're going on a golf course, we're going to be on these golf courses ourselves. So what do you think has shifted? I mean, I don't know. Maybe you. Have you seen the same thing in your organization?

Mary Cerullo:

I've seen it in this bayscaping program. Scarborough was one of the first communities to control the use of pesticides, only organic pesticides on playing fields. The new ordinance that's being proposed for South Portland, specifically in includes athletic fields. And there was a big discussion about that because coaches will say, well, you know, you could have a hole in the ground, somebody's going to fall and trip over weeds or into the hole and break their ankle. So there is the side of how to make it safe for players. But I think more people realize now that rolling around on pesticides is probably not a good idea. So there is and awareness, but it's coming from a groundswell of community members that I think is really exciting. I think in the next couple years we're going to see some really big changes in regulation of pesticides, especially for athletic fields and playgrounds.

Ivy Frignoca:

I think what's interesting about listening to your question and Mary's response is that when you were first raising this concern, people were just beginning to really think, think about this issue. Who knows why at that particular time? And over a very short period of time, there has been more scientific data collected, even including our own data out in the bay, just taking a snapshot of where pesticides are entering the bay. So that rapidly the public has become much more aware that even though we live in a state where we think we're in this totally clean environment, that these are real threats and they want to do something about it. And I think that's what, what's so terrific about working for an organization like Friends of Casco Bay. We can identify the issues. We're located on a region, we can collect the data so that whatever action is taken, it's taken based on good factual information and can really have an impact. So it's pretty exciting to see these efforts go going on in the communities that are around Casco Bay.

Mary Cerullo:

And to that point, it's really interesting. There is an organization, Washington, D.C. based, advocating for removal of pesticides all over the country. They're having their national forum here April 15th and 16th at Hannaford hall at USM in Portland. As a result of the ground, you know, the Advocacy that's been happening here for the last couple years, which we found really exciting that they're going to bring in all these national experts and have a discussion. And our point is to include people like landscapers, arborists, others who work in the industry as part of the conversation. We have a real collaborative approach which sometimes separates us out from other organizations. But we want to put everybody into the conversation. And I think that whatever is created as a result is a lot more responsible. And I know a lot of communities are trying to do that as well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So that's an interesting example of something that I grapple with. Because we spray pesticides because we don't want mosquitoes, because mosquitoes spread illnesses, used to be malaria and now we've got Zika virus and we've got all kinds of fun things that are cropping up. So we know that if you don't have a way to deal with organisms that are causing disease, then you cause human health problems, but now you're causing health problems by spraying this pesticides. So I grapple with that. I grapple with the fact that we now know that people are flushing into the ocean the results of their prescription drugs that they are taking a lot of. So we've got birth control pills floating around in the waters that will then will eventually somebody will end up ingesting that. So you see what I mean? There's an interesting balance, like health and health.

Ivy Frignoca:

And there are many interesting balances. And I think when I listen to this dialogue, a couple things come to mind. First is how important it is to that we're now aware of these things. Because if you don't know that it's getting to the ocean when you flush it down the toilet, if you think you're doing the right thing by responsibly getting rid of extra medicine that you don't want around the house, but you don't know it's causing another harm, then you can't stop and make another choice about it. And I think the same thing with fleece. I find the fleece debate really hard because if you're, if you're wearing a product or clothing that's made from recycled plastic and that's such a good thing. And I don't know about you, but I have fleece that is older than my children because it, the, the fabric lasts and lasts and lasts, well, that's a good thing. I'm not going out and, and buying new products all the time. So, so I can't say, oh, suddenly my friend, fleece is bad. I would also have practically nothing to wear. I have my dress fleece and my, my play fleece. So, so what do we do about that? Do we look at supporting companies that can design filters for our washing machines? Do we look at supporting companies like Patagonia that are looking at playing with different length fibers so that our fleece won't shed? And I think these are all just incredibly complex, complicated questions. And as we gather the science, it's so important to have the conversations and make decisions that are not easy. These are not black and white decisions. Killing someone, that's bad, that's black or white, you know, don't. I guess even in war you could say it's never completely black and white. But so many of these environmental decisions fall in gray areas between competing harms and, and competing goods. It's pretty tricky.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I know as a doctor, I'm not one to willy nilly prescribe medications and in part I'm thinking about the long term health of the patient. Do they really need an antibiotic? You know, do they really need to use birth control pills or is there another option for them? You know, I'm always trying to balance the long term there, short and long term health. But I'm also thinking, you know, the more people we load up with medications, the more medications get peed out into the water, the more medications get flushed down the toilet and the stuff just, it's just this vicious cycle. So it's an interesting and weird place to be existing. Like, you know, enough to feel a little concerned, but you're not, you don't know quite enough to know where to go next. But that's what you're working on, right?

Mary Cerullo:

Because we don't want people to be stuck at the guilt phase.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

No, of course not.

Mary Cerullo:

It's nice to have some solutions. But what I like about our organization is we do marry the science and the advocacy and the outreach. And I think that's a good three pronged stool to have at our disposal where we try to raise the issues, but we try to base them on science and we try to give people solutions as much as we can.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Ivy, you're only the second baking, is that right?

Ivy Frignoca:

Technically, I'm the third. Joe Payton retired in December of 2014 and the executive director for Friends of Casco Bay served as the interim bakeeper during the search term. And then I came on board as the third Bay keeper.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I would assume that the bay keeping role is one that continues to evolve.

Ivy Frignoca:

Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And what does it involve now? What are you going to be focusing on in the foreseeable future.

Ivy Frignoca:

I have two really big goals and this will, I'm sure, span over the entire time that I'm bakeeper and I hope to hold this position for quite a long time. The first is the city of Portland has struggled for years with excess stormwater running into the bay and carrying with it raw sewage when there's overflows. And that happens every month or still almost every month. There are episodes where that still occurs. And so I feel very strongly that it's one of my missions to continue working with the city. They're under a court order to clean this up. They've been under that court order since 1991. It's an expensive and difficult process, but the problem in some ways is exacerbated by climate change because we now have more significant storm events with more water. And I'm sure that the listeners will remember it was only last September that marginal way and other streets were completely flooded in Portland and very difficult to pass. So that's a really big task. And the other one which I've alluded to is climate change. And that takes into account all the whole gray area that we've talked about with just that. Climate change is everything. It's rising temperature, it's rising ph, it's a change in composition of organisms in the bay. There's so many different impacts on the bay caused by climate change that trying to get a handle on what's the new norm in the bay, how can we help the bay adapt and how can we slow down some of the impacts of climate change? So those are the big issues. But the role has also changed. And I don't know if you want me to talk about how the role has changed as well from when my predecessor held the position.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Sure.

Ivy Frignoca:

So I think when Joe Payne started, there was a really clear cut problem. A report had come out indicating that Casco Bay was very unhealthy and that pollution from sewage was the primary issue. And Joe is a scientist and he was really focused on collecting the science and working on starting to alleviate that problem. And the role kind of developed from there. By the time I'm on board, a lot more of the job deals with policy making and the regulatory process. The science is still critical. I'm still very much immersed in the science and work very closely with the scientists on our staff and scientists at other organizations. But more of my time spent in the legislature or reviewing permits to make sure that the limits in the permits are sufficient to protect the bay, Advocating for particular laws and looking at things at that kind of end of the spectrum.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And Mary, how about you? You've been doing this for a little while now. How has your role continued to evolve?

Mary Cerullo:

I think when I first started with 19 years ago now, I was more focused on just doing our publications and supporting Joe. I used to say I was his office wife because I would draft things for him and write policy papers for him. Ivy's really an amazing writer herself, so she doesn't need as much support. But also, as my interest areas grew, there was the fact that we have all this wonderful data, and I have worked with educators in the past, so I put together some curriculum activities that used our data. Now that we're really focusing a lot on climate change, there's a lot of local data that I've incorporated into activities that kids can do to think about how climate change is affecting us locally. Because one of our mottos, think local, act local. And also this base gaping program, even though almost everything we do is focused on the water, bayscaping focuses on lawns, which seems to be kind of an oxymoron. But because of the impact of nitrogen fertilizers and pesticides, we realized we had to get people involved in thinking about how they use their properties. Even if they lived far up, the watershed itself still comes down those rivers. So I've been able to build up different kinds of programs. But having Ivy on board, it's so cool. I love Joe, and he very much supported Ivy's hiring. But Ivy brings an energy and a whole new perspective, so it's almost like starting all over again. So it's very renewing. It's been a really great. Can it only be two months?

Ivy Frignoca:

Well, I think listening to Mary, too, it reminds me that when Joe started, he was the sole employee and a team built over time behind him. So he was a waterkeeper, supposed to be the eyes, ears and voice of the bay. And I am supposed to be the primary eyes, ears, and voice of the bay, but. But I'm just one of a team that's doing that at Friends of Casco Bay. So Mary has particular subject areas that she is a recognized expert. Bayscaping pesticides are among those. Mike Doane has become a phenomenal public speaker, and he deals a lot with nutrients that are getting into the bay, like nitrogen and the impacts of ocean acidification, and reporting on the data that our volunteer scientists have collected. So that's a difference, too. Joe was trying to do it all himself because that's what the job wasn't at the time. And I'm enmeshed in a very talented team and we can tag team things. And I think that creates a lot of excitement and motivation for all of us to do our jobs because we're doing it together, we're thinking out loud and we're working collaboratively.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How can people find out about Friends of Casca Bay and the bayscaping program and all the other wonderful things that you're doing?

Mary Cerullo:

They go to our website, which is cascobay.org org they can stop by our office, which actually is on the campus of Southern Maine Community College in South Portland. But we also are having a number of events in the fall. We do this great film festival that we'll be advertising for November 12th. We're also putting together a plan called Nitrogen Nabbing, which is going to to be on July 10th where we're going to recruit 100 volunteers. A lot of them will need to be boaters to collect water for us that we're going to send off and have analyzed for nitrogen. So it's sort of a one day citizen scientist event.

Ivy Frignoca:

And I would also say Facebook is we do probably more posts these days on Facebook and I'm trying to keep up with Twitter but not so much my thing. But I think a great way, if anybody is listening and wants to be involved, is to join us on July 10th. We already have a lot of people have expressed interest in being volunteers, but it should be a lot of fun. And the science from that day will be used to help the Maine Department of Environmental Protection set limits that can be used on how much nitrogen can be discharged in the bay. So it's an opportunity for in one morning, in a couple hours to do something that will have a real impact for the state.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I encourage people who are listening to find out more about the events you're describing. And also Friends of Casco Bay. We've been speaking with Mary Cerulo, who is the associate director of Friends of Casco Bay, and also with Ivy Frignoca, who is the Casco Bay keeper. It's really a pleasure to have you in here today. I appreciate all the work that you do.

Mary Cerullo:

Thanks so much.

Ivy Frignoca:

Thank you very much.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We love to hear from you. So please let us know what you think of Love Maine Radio. We welcome your suggestions for future shows. Also let our sponsors know that you have heard about them here. We are privileged that they enable us to bring Love Maine Radio to you each week. This is Dr. Lisa Belisle. I hope that you have enjoyed our Happy Lawns Healthy Water Show. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your day. May you have a bountiful life.

Mary Cerullo:

Sa.