Independence #42

Peggy Woodcock:

It's about saying positive things to yourself. Not such outlandish things that you don't have any connection to them. But in every way, every day I'm better and better of speaking well to yourself and of yourself. So if you tell yourself you're healing, if you tell yourself you're going to sleep well, if you tell yourself your body's going to relax, the body will say, oh, that's what I'm supposed to do, and it will begin to do it, as opposed to telling yourself all the negative things that just seem to hurt more and drag you down more.

Beth Kubik:

One of the features of being a codependent is having low self esteem, having that fear of abandonment. So despite being in a relationship that's not reciprocal, you're staying in the relationship and that can go to your sense of self.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Today's show, which I will be discussing with Genevieve Morgan who's in the studio with me today. Hi Genevieve.

Genevieve Morgan:

Hi Lisa. Happy almost 4th of July.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Thank you. Almost. Independence Day is going to focus Our show today is going to focus on independence. And some people think about independence as fireworks and they think about watermelon and backyards and picnics and this is all good, but those are sort of all celebrating an independence from something that was onerous and in our case it was the country's independence from the big larger evil empire powers that were. But this has very significant meaning in

Genevieve Morgan:

people's lives, in their overall health and well being, which is what we're all about.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Freedom.

Genevieve Morgan:

Freedom from onerous habits.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes, onerous habits. I do find that this is something that people come to see me in my acupuncture and integrative medicine practice a lot, which is things that have gotten them. Gotten people to a bad place or not necessarily bad, just not a place that they'd like to be in anymore. Whether they've gained too much weight or they're still smoking, or they're still in an emotionally dysfunctional relationship. It's the patterns that finally there's some breaking point. And people finally will come to see me and say, you know, what my body is telling me or my life is telling me that I just can't keep doing this.

Genevieve Morgan:

And yet it's so hard to make those positive changes. When something has served you for a while and then it doesn't serve you anymore, to actually leave it behind is very difficult.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I mean, we were talking about smoking, and we'll talk about smoking with Peggy Woodcock and the fact that you can actually see a positive change in your lungs pretty quickly. But it's always an interesting. It's always an interesting balance because you will simultaneously see a positive change and maybe a change that doesn't feel quite so comfortable and makes you want to go. I always call it the comfy couch syndrome. You always want to go sit back on the comfy couch where you. Where you've been for a long time. And if you're smoking and it's done what you've needed it to do for many, many years, you want to go back to that smoking feeling. So even that small amount of positive can sometime. Not quite. Not quite enough.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, and people often like you the way you are and don't want you to change. You know, your group or your community or your family even. They like what you've been doing or they've gotten used to who you are. And so making that kind of decision, going to see somebody like yourself getting in tune with what you really want to do. Setting an intention for change is all well and good, but then when a patient leaves your office, they go back to the old ways or the old community. How do you. I mean, maybe that's why Weight Watchers works, because there's a buddy system. Kind of need a buddy sometimes to make a change.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, sometimes you need a buddy. Sometimes you need some sort of a practitioner who can help you, whether it's a spiritual practitioner, whether it's a healthcare practitioner or a psychologist. Today we're going to have Peggy Woodcock from Reiki Partners in Kenny Bungport and psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Kubik come in and they're both individuals who help with guidance. So sometimes you need somebody who can sort of be in the trenches with you, and sometimes you need somebody who can advise and give you more of an objective view. But it does ultimately come back to your interest in changing. As I said, people rarely do anything unless there is some positive benefit. Even if it doesn't seem very positive in the long term, they're going to keep doing it. And one of the things that we were talking with our audio guru, John McCain, before we started talking, you and I, is this sort of idea of chasing the next high. Whether you have a drink, you have a few drinks, you start to feel really good. The next day you feel kind of bad and you think, well, I'll just have another drink or another two drinks. And the same with eating where you eat some ice cream and it makes you feel temporarily good, but then you feel kind of bad and you think the next day, well, you know, but that made me feel good yesterday. Why don't I have some more ice cream? And I think the same thing can be true with smoking, with drugs, prescription medications, relationships. Even people who have a little bit of either a sex addiction or an emotional addiction, they like that good feeling that the other person in their life gives to them, however temporarily. And they're willing to sort of overlook some of the bad things in a relationship that kind of probably don't make it a good sustainable long term effort.

Genevieve Morgan:

And I think too, from all the research I did for the Core Balance diet, one thing about health scares, I'm sure that many of your patients come to you because they have pain or they have some health scare. If you sometimes the body speaks louder than the psyche. And so a health scare can actually just be like a tiny little red flag that gets raised that says something needs to change. And going and finding that guidance like in your office or with Beth Kubik or with Peggy Woodcock, you can help figure out what it is. And it doesn't have to be all at once. It can be little baby steps towards a better future and independence from the things that aren't working. Sometimes those red flags are really important because you want to catch them when they're little. Tiny red flags, not big red flags.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes. And that is one of the reasons why a lot of people will come to see me for acupuncture or they'll come and join the qigong class that I teach because there's something that they really, they saw as a red flag in their life. And the interesting thing for me always is that I will have to keep in front of me my notes from past visits so that I can remind them, because people start to feel a little bit better and all of a sudden they think, oh well, you know, what's the big deal? I can start eating the kind of food I ate before, or they don't realize. But it's all the work that they've done to get to the place where they've changed that makes them feel good. So they sort of start to backslide. So it's awfully nice for me to be able to, as sort of an advisor to go open the chart and say, well, remember last year at this time you were experiencing this? And they say, oh yeah, and maybe I don't want to do this anymore, so maybe this is a good reason to kind of stay on the path. So that's another important thing that people have to remember is that a health scare is all well and good, but there has to be some sort of forward momentum that keeps you moving in the right direction.

Genevieve Morgan:

Maintenance I think Beth Kubik will talk to us about maintenance.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, we do look forward to talking to Peggy Woodcock from Reiki Partners and Kenny Bungport and local psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Kubik about independence. So we hope that those who are listening will keep on listening and we appreciate having you be part of our listening community. The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast is pleased to be sponsored by the University of New England. As part of this affiliation, every week we offer a segment we call Wellness Innovations. This week's Wellness Innovation is the Bergen Facebook Addiction Scale, which has been developed at the Faculty of Psychology, University of Bergen in collaboration with the Bergen Clinics Foundation, Norway. Are you a social media enthusiast or simply a Facebook addict? Researchers from Norway have developed a new instrument to measure Facebook addiction, the Bergen Facebook Addiction Scale. An article about the results has just been published in the renowned journal Psychological Reports. The Bergen Facebook Addiction Scale is based on six basic how much time you spend thinking about Facebook or plan use of Facebook how often you feel an urge to use Facebook. You use Facebook in order to forget about personal problems. You've tried to cut down on the use of Facebook without success. You become restless or troubled if you're prohibited from using Facebook. You use Facebook so much that it has a negative impact on your job or studies. The study shows that scoring often or always on at least four of the seven items may suggest that you are addicted to Facebook. Facebook addiction occurs more regularly among younger users and people who are anxious and socially insecure. The research also indicates that women are more at risk of developing Facebook addiction as are extroverts. For more information on this Wellness Innovation, visit Doctorisa.org for more information on the University of New England, visit une.edu.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

on today's Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast, we're discussing the theme of independence, which we've taken down a slightly different route because we want to learn more about independence from perhaps patterns we've gotten into that are keeping us a little bit stuck in our lives. So we thought it would be a good time to bring in Peggy Woodcock, nurse and owner, founder, everything she says of Reiki Partners because one of the things she does is hypnotherapy and we know that this has been shown to help people with their independence and breaking free of habits. So thank you for coming in today Peggy.

Peggy Woodcock:

Oh it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And I have Genevieve Morgan next to me. She's the co host and also Maine Magazine Wellness Editor.

Genevieve Morgan:

I am. And yes, actually I covered Peggy in an article on energy medicine about a year ago in the magazine and had a session with her. So I'm intimately acquainted with your work. Thanks for coming Peggy.

Peggy Woodcock:

Great to see you again, Genevieve.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Peggy, your practice was formed after many years in the traditional medical setting. You worked in doctor's offices and in a hospital, I understand. So you had the chance to witness people kind of repeatedly doing things to themselves that maybe weren't so healthy. Is that how you got to be where you're doing what you're doing?

Peggy Woodcock:

Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I did. Many years of labor and delivery and neonatal intensive care and doctors offices and seeing that surely sometimes surgery, sometimes medicine was very helpful, but not always. And there seemed to be a lot more to healing and to making changes in one's lives than what we found in the traditional medicine path. So I like to call the type of work that I do alternative or complementary therapy that it doesn't cut out the possibilities of certainly seeing doctors seeing psychiatrists taking medicine having surgery when needed. However, there are other ways that can be very helpful to heal.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What were some of the biggest challenges you dealt with as a traditional medical practitioner?

Peggy Woodcock:

People not understanding that they have control over their own health and their own healing that they needed to think about what felt right to them and what was going to work in their lives and not just take a pattern way of doing something and being told that that's the way they needed to do it.

Genevieve Morgan:

One of the conundrums we have today is that we have a lot of information and we know that things are bad for us. We know that smoking causes lung cancer. We know that if we eat too much junk food, it isn't good for our health, but we continue to do it because it feels good. And so what I'm interested in your work. How do you fix that with people?

Peggy Woodcock:

Well, first of all, I don't fix anything, but thank you for the suggestion. People turn to things that make them feel better at some point in their life and those things then continue to be a habit. And sometimes we get to a point where they're no longer helpful for us. And even if we know that smoking was probably never helpful for the 15 year old at the time, that 15 year old thought that it helped them with their friends, thought that it made them feel big, thought that it did something to their psyche to help them to fit in. And so that feeling of depending upon that to make them feel comfortable with themselves and feeling good about who they were, that habit becomes part of who they are and gets settled into their subconscious. So if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to talk a little bit about the conscious and the subconscious to explain how hypnosis works. Okay. Well, the conscious part of the brain is really only a very small part of our mind, of our brain. And if you were to think about the brain as a pie, and you were to say that the conscious brain was one part of that, it would be a very small sliver, like 5 to 10%. And the conscious brain is very important because it takes us through our day. It helps us make our list for our groceries and put our things on our calendar and put the clothes in the washer and send the kids off to school. And all of the things that we do, consciously working step by step through our day. And it's very necessary on this earth to have those things going on. However, the subconscious remembers everything, everything that you've ever done, everything you've ever seen, everything you've ever read, everything you've ever heard, and stores, it's most of the time we don't access a lot of that. However, the information is still stored there. And so the 15 year old who started smoking and felt really good when they had a cigarette because it made them feel big or like part of the Crowd then remembers that good feeling. And so the habit is stored in the subconscious. And so the mention or the memory comes forward and says, but if you have a cigarette, you'll feel good, you'll fit into this crowd, everything will be okay. And so that habit for that 15 year old gets stored in the subconscious and keeps coming forward through throughout the years until a better idea, a better habit, a better thought replaces it. So our conscious brain holds our willpower. So someone who wants to lose weight says, but I just don't have the willpower. Well, only 5 to 10% of their brain is working to help them. In the subconscious is stored the reasons perhaps why that person overeats or someone else bites their nails or someone else smokes. And so it's necessary then to get the new idea, the new thought, the new helpful healing idea into the subconscious brain. Now some of us do this very quickly. We learn something, we experience it once and we say, boy, that didn't work very well. And we very quickly move on to the next thing. That means that both our conscious and subconscious brain tied into the change, tied into the positive move. But those things that we all have trouble with, and they can vary from person to person, but we all have trouble with something and those are the things that are stored in our subconscious and we haven't replaced it with a better idea.

Genevieve Morgan:

And that's where hypnotherapy helps.

Peggy Woodcock:

And that's where hypnotherapy helps. Exactly. So first of all, hypnosis is not sleep. It's not a weirded out state. It's not someone else taking control of you, making you do something that you don't want to do. It's always about getting you to relax enough for the conscious brain that hurries around all day long to settle down and the subconscious brain to come to the forefront. And then we can reach in to those habits and make positive suggestions that the client wants to make, that the client needs for those changes. And those positive suggestions then settle into the subconscious. And if you hit on the right note, if you get the right feeling and the person buys into the idea, then of course the new idea gets settled into the subconscious and that's what comes forward for the smoker. What I would suggest and want and hope that would come forward is but I'm smoke free, but I'm a non smoker. If there's any idea of smoking, that comes up. Now when we have habits that we've had for many years, they settle in pretty deeply and your subconscious reminds you to Smoke or reminds you to eat that extra bowl of ice cream or remind you to chew your nails because this has made you feel better at some point in the past.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, and certainly maybe in times of stress.

Peggy Woodcock:

Absolutely. In times of stress, Peggy, were there

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

things that you had to sort of reteach your brain in bridging from traditional, quote, unquote, traditional medicine to the new type of medicine that you're practicing, this more integrative medicine?

Peggy Woodcock:

Absolutely, yes. And I think one of those things started out with, I have to begin speaking positively to myself. And as I began to do that, I began to listen to how other people spoke to themselves and how we put out to the universe things like, oh, my nose is getting stuffy this morning, wow. By Friday for sure I'll have a cold and miss that wedding on Saturday. And immediately our subconscious and our body takes on that thought that we tell ourselves things that are negative, that are not helpful, that push us away from health. We have been taught to do that. We've all been taught to do that. I remember somebody saying, geez, I'm going to say I'm fat first. Because then maybe nobody else will say it, or maybe nobody else will notice. And in some ways, we all do that. We quickly point out our bad points, we quickly point out where we've failed, where we don't do well. And I think a good example is my own sense of direction, which used to not be very good in the past, that wasn't very good. And I had difficulty finding my way to people's houses or events. I then learned that if I began saying to myself, but my sense of direction improves every day, it's getting better and better and better and better. And then the nervousness, the worry, the stress that came on, I'm going to be late because I can't find that house number began to float away. And I did things like getting other tools, like I got a GPS and I told people I could find my way there. And I told my relatives I could find my way there, even though they said, oh, don't ask, Peggy, I can do it. And so I began to teach myself those types of things and realized that that's what everybody does on some level or another in some section of their lives. They tear themselves down.

Genevieve Morgan:

And let's go back to smoking for one brief moment because that is an area where people have tremendous difficulty in stopping and does repeated failure. If someone's been smoking for 30 years and they've tried to quit eight times, but each time it's failed, does that reinforce the negative script about, oh, I'm not a person who can stop smoking.

Peggy Woodcock:

And I think to some degree that is true. But my job as a hypnotherapist is to say, look, you've tried all these times, what didn't work. Let's look at what didn't work, and let's look at this in a whole new way and we grab all the big guns. If someone says to me, I definitely need to use the patch, I've used it before and it worked for three weeks, can I use the patch and come to hypnosis? Absolutely, if that works best for you, it is another replacement of nicotine. And so you also need to be weaned off the patch. But if that's what's going to work for right now to get you going, use all the big guns you can. Somebody asks about Chantex if they feel that that would be helpful for them. Yes. Most people I see, for example, to stop smoking have already tried 1, 2, 4, 8 times and they're coming to hypnosis as a last resort. So it's a big job to help that person to begin to see that it really comes from their own mind and to teach them how to begin to think in a positive way and to reach in and get that information stored in the subconscious. I have a wonderful story if you'd like me to tell it. An 80 year old man came to me with his oxygen tank with very bad emphysema, which of course we know smoking either causes or at least increases greatly. So his lungs were not working very well at all. And he said, I need to stop smoking. My doctor says I've got to stop smoking and I just have to do this. And so we talked for a while. I learned a little about his life. One thing that I thought was an amazing thing was that he had started when he was 9. He had smoked unfiltered Pall Malls since he was 9. So we're talking 71 years. He was in a foster home and his early years weren't very happy or weren't very good. And so this whole idea of him stopping smoking at this point seemed amazing. And his relatives didn't believe it or whatever. So he came to his first session and he left feeling better about himself, thinking that he could maybe do it. But he smoked that week. He came back the second week, which typically I do at least two sessions. He came back the second week and I regressed him to a time before he smoked, which for him was a long time ago. And he accessed a time when he felt really good about himself. And that's what I had him bring in. But he did the work. He found that time when he felt really good, it was at a sports event and he hit the home run or the final goal, whatever it was, and the boys carried him around and he felt really wonderful and he accessed that good feeling and brought that in and that helped him to see that he could feel really good about himself. And he walked out of there a non smoker. He called me in three weeks and said, my doctor says my lungs are better already. I'm on less oxygen. And he called me about every month and would tell me his name and say, I'm here to tell you I'm still a nonsmoker. I'm telling all my friends and relatives and it was a wonderful episode and a wonderful time in my life to see that people can change things no matter how long it's been, if they truly want to, and allow the positive messages to soak in.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You've spoken about smoking and you've mentioned nail biting. What other types of habits tend to kind of populate your waiting room?

Peggy Woodcock:

Weight loss. And that is a major one. And the difference with weight loss and say, for example, nail biting or drug use is that weight loss is always around a balance. It always has to be around eating enough to be healthy and happy and yet not overeating. And so in some ways stopping other abusive habits, such as, as we said, smoking and drugs, those you actually can live completely the rest of your life without. But with weight loss, you need to balance your food, balance your exercise, balance your water intake, and find a way where you are happy and healthy and comfortable and never on a diet. Always it's about balance. And so that's the piece. Most people that come to me for weight loss have had many attempts at losing weight, have sometimes lost a great deal of weight and then gained it back. And it was always about being on a strict regimen of not eating anything good, not eating anything fun, exercising until they fell down and in some way or Another, they overdid it and sort of abused themselves in a way because they limited anything that they were allowed to do into being in this box so as to lose weight. And so finding a way to eat what you'd like in appropriate amounts, helping you to move forward in that way, knowing that if your goal is to lose weight and to feel good in your physical body, then it maybe is more important than that ice cream or that box of candy that you would have consumed in the past. So those weight loss and smoking cessation seem to be the two largest.

Genevieve Morgan:

Are there other areas, for instance, insomnia or menopause, Any other life stages or transitions?

Peggy Woodcock:

Very definitely. Anything that involves an energy change, anything that involves bodily changes can absolutely be helped with hypnosis because we talk to the subconscious. And I'd like to point out that the subconscious runs all of your body mechanisms. So thank goodness we don't have to spend our time worrying about our heartbeats or how many breaths I'll take in this minute, or whether this muscle will move this way or that type of thing, whether my hormones will flow the way they're supposed to, because the subconscious runs all of that for us so many times. The subconscious is always. The subconscious is working at doing the very, very best it can for us. It wants us happy and healthy. And the messages it gets come from our conscious brain. So if we send the message back that menopause is terrible and I'm going to have sweats and I'm going to be miserable and I'm going to be cranky, then the subconscious says, oh, let's make her miserable and cranky and fat and retain water and not sleep. And so as we begin to talk to the subconscious about this being simply a change in the hormonal system, a change in the energy system, a change in life, and that it's comfortable and safe and wonderful in many ways that the subconscious begins to understand and send those messages back to you. Oh, so I'm having a hot flash. Well, the energy must be moving right up through my body. And looking at it that way is so much easier.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Now, you also practice Reiki?

Peggy Woodcock:

I do.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Is there a parallel with hypnosis and Reiki as far as energy or.

Peggy Woodcock:

Yes, in many ways there is. As a matter of fact, I came from my traditional medical background and took a Reiki class and said, ah, this is for me, and then moved into actually taking all the levels of Reiki. And my daughter and I opened a Reiki practice, which was Reiki partners, and then realized we were Doing meditation, we were helping people with ideas and changes. And so although Reiki is considered to be energy, healing, energy changes by the practitioner, channeling, bringing in universal energy to that client and bringing them into balance, allowing them to heal on their own, hypnosis actually does the same thing. It helps the person to come into some sort of balance and then realize where they can make the changes and move. And so the two are used very much together.

Genevieve Morgan:

My mother found Reiki to be very helpful during chemotherapy and radiation for cancer. Yes, Doing it complementary to the chemotherapy.

Peggy Woodcock:

Wonderful. That's absolutely right. Because it helps to move out what needs to be moved out and bring in what needs, what feels better and what balances you. So, absolutely, in any kind of health crisis or health journey, it can be used and also hypnosis to actually talk to the specific cells and to help with the immunity and help the immune cells to gather together and do their best and make them understand how to fight perhaps a cancer or how to move forward in a way of healing and to build up bone muscle and bone marrow and to help the muscles to relax during treatments, that type of thing, to help with relaxation.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Are there any specific suggestions you could offer our listeners who are struggling with trying to be more independent of their previously perhaps dysfunctional patterns?

Peggy Woodcock:

Yes, at the risk of repeating myself, certainly beginning to talk to yourself in a positive way. I always say, well, like they say in aa, fake it till you make it. And it's about saying positive things to yourself, not such outlandish things that you don't have any connection to them. But in every way, every day, I'm better and better. That's something I send people home with almost every time and just beginning to pull in the feelings of positive thoughts and of speaking well to yourself and of yourself. And your body responds to what your mind tells it. I often say that the body is a robot. It works in a way that your mind tells it what to do and then it does it. So if you tell yourself you're healing, if you tell yourself you're going to sleep well, if you tell yourself your body's going to relax, the body will say, oh, that's what I'm supposed to do, and it will begin to do it, as opposed to telling yourself all the negative things that just seem to hurt more and drag you down more.

Genevieve Morgan:

Peggy, as a final gift to our listeners who out there, as Lisa have said, may be struggling with their addictions or their bad habits, could you offer us a stress reduction hypnotic induction with the caveat that anyone driving or operating heavy machinery should stop right now.

Peggy Woodcock:

Yes, that's right. You never do hypnosis while driving or doing it using heavy duty machinery of any type, or electric knives or anything along those lines. And one last note before I start. All hypnosis is self hypnosis. It's always what you allow. I'm simply the guide. So just allow yourself to settle into the surface beneath you, letting your shoulders relax and your arms relax. Your chest relaxes now and on down through your hips and into your legs. I'd like you to notice that perhaps as you're resting here, your eyelids are closed and that they feel heavy and droopy and you just settle in. Settle in. The whole purpose of hypnosis and hypnosis therapy is to allow yourself to relax. Let the conscious mind to settle into the background and bring the subconscious mind to the forefront. And as you relax, that happens automatically. So let yourself settle down. I'm going to help you take some nice slow, deep breaths now, breathing in on the count of four. One, two, three, four. Hold that breath. And now exhale on the count of eight. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Again, inhale. 1, 2, 3, 4. Hold and exhale. 2, 3, 4, five, six, seven, eight. And one more at your own pace. Wonderful. Now just let yourself settle back, relaxing more and more, perhaps feeling better and better each moment as you allow your whole body, mind and spirit to settle down. Settle down, settle down, relaxing more and more. And now we access your subconscious brain. And if you are only relaxing even slightly now, your subconscious is 10 to 20 times more susceptible to positive healing self love suggestions than it was before we started. And if you're allowing yourself to go much deeper, you could be a hundred or even a thousand times more suggestible to the positive suggestions, the healing self love suggestions that I'm giving you now. So settle down and relax. Thinking to yourself that you are healthy, you are happy and you are learning to relax. Body, mind and spirit working together, settling down, becoming more and more restful, saying positive things to yourself. Every day, in every way, I'm better and better. When I see the color of the sky, I allow myself to relax. I am in control of my choices. I live my life to the fullest, allowing yourself to relax more and more, letting these positive suggestions settle in. And now, after that short, short hypnosis, we're going to bring you back. I'll bring you back to the room, back to the car, back to the place, making sure that you're safe. On the count of three. One. Coming back now two, feeling very good about yourself. And three, you're wide awake, alert and clear, able to go on with the rest of your day, feeling really good about you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, Peggy, we know that our listeners who participated in the induction are feeling nice and relaxed now and ready to take on the challenges of becoming independent from perhaps past patterns that no longer work for them. So we thank you for coming in and speaking with us today. We wish you all the best with Reiki Partners and with your hypnotherapy practice, which is in Kennebunkport. Kennebunk Kennebunk people can learn more information

Peggy Woodcock:

about your practice where on www.reikipartnersmaine. that's M A I N E.com great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Thanks so much Peggy.

Peggy Woodcock:

Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

as part of today's Independence show, where we discuss ways of breaking free from our past patterns that maybe were not so healthy for us. We are speaking with Dr. Elizabeth Kubik, a clinical psychologist from the Portland area, and we welcome you to our show. Thanks for coming in.

Beth Kubik:

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Beth, you deal with a lot of different issues. You deal with anxiety, postpartum depression, Infertility, stress management, women's wellness. It strikes me that there's probably similar themes that run throughout when it comes to patterns. People with unhealthy patterns in their lives. Tell me about that.

Beth Kubik:

Well, a lot of people develop unhealthy patterns related to distress tolerance. We tend to do what works for us well in the short run. And sometimes what works for us well in the short run isn't so helpful for us in the long run. For instance, drinking, it's a great way to relieve anxiety in the short run, in the long run, probably causes more problems if you're over drinking or relying that as your way to cope with distress. So I tend to think of habits as relating to distress tolerance and also as relating to short term thinking. And we tend to, we tend to do what works, as I said, what works well for us in the short term. And the short term reinforcer is much more powerful than a long term delayed reinforcer.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We were speaking with a hypnotherapist in our last segment. She said something very similar. She said that the, the short term thing is that people, that's sort of what people reach for. But we didn't really talk with her a lot about relationships. And what is it about relationships that we keep sort of reaching towards to make us feel better, even if in the long term they're not the best thing for us?

Beth Kubik:

Well, some people learn, maybe through their childhood, different relationship patterns. They might learn to be a rescuer in a relationship. So say they grew up in a family with an alcoholic parent or someone in the family who's an alcoholic. They might have grown up taking on responsibility for that person in the family. Or they might have felt that they needed to control certain things in the family. They might have felt that things would fall apart without them taking care of situations. That's a classic example of someone learning codependence in a relationship. And that's not an uncommon phenomena for children of alcoholics. That could be one example. I'm guessing you can see this type of thing also, not just that could carry on into a spousal relationship. You could see a mother child relationship where maybe the mom is trying to control their child and overbearing and not willing to let their child have independence, which can cause problems. I don't know if I've answered the question well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, you have. Define for me what is codependence? What does that mean?

Beth Kubik:

Well, codependence. Some people might say codependence is an addiction to bad relationships or unhealthy relationships. I think there's a variety of definitions out there. More research that I'm not super familiar with has come out in the last 10 years based on families or individuals who grew up in families with alcoholism, showing that this is a phenomena for people who grow up in dysfunctional families. It's a particular, it can be a phenomena for people who grow up in those kind of families where they tend to end up in relationships where they're codependent and looking to take care of someone else, even if it's not healthy for them, or even if it's an abusive relationship or an emotionally destructive relationship and they will stay in the relationship even if it's, if it's not a

Genevieve Morgan:

great relationship for them because it feels familiar.

Beth Kubik:

It could be because it feels familiar, because for them it satisfies that need to try to control another person. It satisfies that need to try to save someone else. That's what they grew up watching. Maybe that's what feels in some funny way good to them to be able to do that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You describe this rescuer type. What does that look like?

Beth Kubik:

Let's see. So again, if we go back to a child with someone who grew up in an alcoholic family, again, if their family was chaotic and they were constantly trying to save their family from being exposed maybe to the community that this family was really dysfunctional and that there was, there were arguments or maybe financial distress, that person learns to, learns to cover these things up and keep this stuff to themselves. And they also learn that that works for them, that yes, they can be in this kind of situation and take control of it. And then there are the superhero kind of controlling everything and making everything okay. And that in some way works for them, at least in the short run. So we go again back to the short term, long term distinction. For them, in the short run, it feels pretty good. Does that answer

Genevieve Morgan:

if you've been living 40 years as a rescuer pleaser in a co dependent relationship and all of a sudden it's not working. How would you know?

Beth Kubik:

Well, it's often hard for the individual to have insight into their own behavior. Oftentimes they the person with the problem, whether it's a habit problem like nail biting or drinking, or if it's relationship codependence, oftentimes that person is the last person to have insight into their own behavior where everyone around them can see it more clearly. So one way is other people could tell you, gee, I think there's a problem here. And you may not be ready to hear that. You could be we have a theory of change called the stages of change theory. So there are five stages of pre contemplative, contemplative preparation, action, and maintenance. And if someone is in the pre contemplative stage of change, they might not be ready to hear that they have a problem, and they lack insight into their own problem behavior. Such that if someone came to them and said, I think this is a problem, they would say, no, this relationship is working. Or if they had an alcohol problem, no, my drinking is not a problem. I don't drink more than my friends. It's all okay. Despite the fact that, again, it might be obvious to everyone around them that this is interfering in their life, that maybe the relationship is so chaotic, they're getting to work late, they're not able to hang out with their friends, that it's taking a toll on them. And in the contemplative stage, someone has more insight into their behavior. They're contemplating change. They might be ambivalent. They might be thinking about the pros and cons. They're not necessarily committed to change or even committed to preparing to change, but they're maybe starting to recognize that there could be some problems here. They might have a hard time even thinking about letting go of the behaviors at that point, because it's scary, you know, especially if it's a relationship, someone they care about. It would be hard to even think about what it would mean to try to change that. The preparation stage. Someone is recognizing that they have a problem. Maybe they've made an appointment to seek help, or maybe they're starting to talk to friends and saying, I have a problem. I think that I want to change this up. I think my relationship isn't working. I don't know if there's a way I can change it, or I don't know if I need to get out of it. I need to figure this out. And so that's the preparation stage, where they figured out the pros and cons, and they're ready to start moving forward, but they haven't actually taken action. The action stage is when someone is actively taking action. If they're going the treatment route, maybe they're in treatment, starting to make the changes, maybe starting to be in couples therapy and start to assertively communicate or set limits in their relationship. Or if not in treatment, they might still be doing that same thing. They might be reading and making the changes on their own. And the maintenance stage is about maintaining the gains that they've done. And we can all think about times where we've made a really big change in our lives, and we're so excited. But we kind of forget the maintenance part, which is very important. And that's all about staying with the behavior change and not relapsing into our previous habits. Just like if we start our running program and we're running all the time and it's so great. And then something comes up in our life, and within two months we've kind of forgotten about our running program. Maintenance is about staying focused on. On how to keep that behavior going and being really. Some of it comes down to mindfulness in this action and maintenance stage, being mindful of what you're committing to and staying aware of the behaviors that you want to be choosing to do each day with respect to your relationship or with respect to any other kind of habit, like alcohol use or something like that.

Genevieve Morgan:

the difference with relationship is there's the element of attraction. And so talk to us about how attraction that you can be attracted to the wrong person over and over again. Because attraction seems something that just comes out of the blue. It doesn't feel like you're making a choice.

Beth Kubik:

Well, that's an interesting one. So I have a bias in that I'm a behaviorist, and I tend to see things in terms of reinforcements and consequences and behaviors. So in my behavioral view, I would break that down into behaviors that it's not necessarily attraction. It's maybe the behaviors that we choose to engage in in the relationship. That's in some ways kind of clinical because on some level, there is a chemistry. But beyond the chemistry, we might then look at again, what reinforcement do we get and what do we get out of that relationship? So the attraction might be about, again, going back to our learning history. And that's a behavioral concept, too, that this can be learned, that we learn that, okay, this is my model. This is my norm. This is what a relationship is. This is what's romantic and exciting.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, for instance, we all have friends who are attracted to men who never call them back.

Beth Kubik:

Yeah.

Genevieve Morgan:

And for some reason, every time they have a new boyfriend, it's the same kind of boyfriend. And you're sitting there saying, well, if he doesn't call you back, you need to do something else. But they don't. So what would be attractive about that to that person.

Beth Kubik:

Again, it could be that for them they have low self esteem and that for them this is how they see themselves. They don't necessarily see themselves as worthy of getting a phone call. This is the best that they can do and that can go along with the codependence. One of the features of being a codependent is having low self esteem, having that fear of abandonment. So despite being in a relationship where you're not, that's not reciprocal, you're staying in the relationship and that can go to your sense of self.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, talk a little bit about anxiety because I think our listeners might not think of their anxiety as a behavior that could be changed. Again, like attraction, it feels sort of out of their control. So what would you say to someone who has a pattern of anxiety and wants to break free of it?

Beth Kubik:

Well, I would tend to talk to them about what situations trigger their anxiety. That's really where I would start. Okay, what are the situations where you're feeling anxious and what are you doing in response? So you're really looking at behaviors. What are you doing when you feel anxious? What are you doing that works? What are you doing that doesn't work? And then we really start to focus on what are you doing that doesn't work. A classic example of things that don't work in anxiety are avoidance. You know, if I have panic attacks in the supermarket, I could manage my anxiety by not going to the supermarket at all. I totally avoid it. And that works really well. And that again comes down to that short term, long term distinction and distress tolerance. In the short run, it works great for me to stay out of the supermarket because I don't experience anxiety if I do go into the supermarket. Maybe I have this idea that if my anxiety gets to a certain point, I leave. And again, that's an avoidance behavior in that I'm escaping the supermarket and I feel this huge rush of relief if I leave the supermarket when I'm feeling on the verge of having a panic attack. So I've successfully controlled my anxiety in the short run. In the long run, that avoidance will cause me problems because I'm not doing anything in the long run to solve the problem. And if anything I'm making it worse because in my head I can't go to the supermarket. That's my self concept now is that I really can't go to the supermarket. I haven't gone in six months and when I do go, I feel so anxious I have to leave and I'm not giving myself the chance to Develop the idea that I can stay in the supermarket. And so again, that comes down to distress tolerance. So then once we identify what the avoidance behaviors are, we can teach people how to tolerate their distress and really what we call stay in the situation, approach your anxiety. Technically, in behavior therapy, they might call that exposure based treatment.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, and you brought in the idea of mindfulness before. I mean, that is the whole concept of mindfulness is staying in the situation and being present as hard as it can be.

Beth Kubik:

Yes, mindfulness is an important part of anxiety. And fortunately, in the last 10 years, the researchers have really embraced the literature on mindfulness and incorporated that into the treatment programs, which has been a great addition to a lot of behavior therapy treatments. We have what we call in vivo exposure, which is really going into the situation and learning how to stay with your anxiety in the situation. And then we have what we call imaginal exposure, which is imagining yourself in the situation. That really involves mindfulness work. And in your mind allowing yourself to sit with an idea or a concept or a feeling, feeling that could be distressing. And beyond doing the work specifically relating to an anxiety trigger, just learning. Mindfulness in general is helpful for people because they learn how to slow down, recognize what their emotions are, and be more proactive about taking care of themselves when they're noticed. You know, once they turn inward, they can notice that they're anxious. Maybe before they hadn't noticed because they weren't able to. They weren't as attentive to themselves.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I know from experience in my clinical practice that substance abuse is very challenging to deal with as a clinician. And it can be very hard. It can be rewarding because you can get to the other side of it. But you chose to sort of dive right into this very difficult field. Why?

Beth Kubik:

Oh, into substance abuse? Well, I got a job in doing research on substance abuse, which is what steered me in that direction. And at the same time, I really enjoyed that work. And if I think back in my years of clinical work and now it's been many years, probably 20 years. That time was one of my favorite times because those clients really appreciated the help. And they, if they were in that preparation or action stage of treatment, it was so rewarding to work with them and help them learn about new ways to live their lives. Granted, it's frustrating if you're having someone come in who's more in a pre contemplative stage, because there's not a lot you can do at that point to help them. There are some techniques called motivational interviewing, designed to help elicit motivation and help someone move forward in their stages of change. And that is helpful too. I do like the substance abuse work, although I don't actively do much of it anymore.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, let's say someone out there listening is in the contemplative stage, almost to the preparedness stage. Do you have any baby steps for them that you can tell us over the radio?

Beth Kubik:

So you have someone in the contemplative stage. So if they're in the contemplative stage, they have insight into their problem, whereas in the pre contemplative stage, they'd be defensive. And so at that point, talking to other people, getting advice, thinking through the pros and cons, thinking about that short term, long term distinction. I often have my patients go through pros and cons of staying with the behavior and the pros and cons of changing behavior. So two separate pros and cons list. One is pros and cons of drinking, one is pros and cons of not drinking. They come out different, interestingly enough. And then you take that pros and cons list and you, for each item under each category, think about, is this a short term benefit or a long term benefit? And try to help someone draw out their thinking to long term and then help try to encourage them to make their decision based on the long term benefits.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I've actually found that to be useful when it comes to relationships and my patients, because they'll come in and they'll say, I was with this man for such a long time and, and I knew I had to leave him and here's the reasons why. So I'll have him list all the reasons why and sort of go through that process. But it's actually helpful for maintenance because people forget. They forget and they go, oh, I really love this guy. I don't know why I'm not with him anymore. So I pull out the list and I go, okay, right here, this is your list of why you're not with this person. And I don't want to say guy women are the same way, but I find that that's very helpful.

Beth Kubik:

Yeah, yeah. And that maintenance phase is really about staying with the commitment to maintain the behavior change. So going back to your reasons can be motivating. Yeah, yeah.

Genevieve Morgan:

And what's the reward of behavior change? To tell people what they could look forward to if they decide to move to the action phase.

Beth Kubik:

If they decide to move to the action phase. It sounds so, it sounds so linear. Well, the reward is living a full and vital life. Maybe having relationships that are more fulfilling, enjoying the moment more. I think oftentimes we have in our head. And when I talk to people, for instance, about their anxiety, people come in and they have this idea, well, when I get control of my anxiety, then I will be able to go to college, or then I'll be able to get my job, or then I'll be able to go out more and have more friends. And it doesn't work that way. And so in the action phase, you are able to say, I'm ready to make these changes whether or not I have anxiety. And so you can, you can take in the moment and be enjoying your life more rather than putting your life on hold waiting for this anxiety to go away.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Beth how do people find out more about you or your practice or the type of work that you do?

Beth Kubik:

Well, I am listed on the Internet if you Google Elizabeth Kubik and it's spelled K U B I K PhD I was joking earlier with the the recording person that I'm not in the 21st century yet, so I don't yet have a webpage. So googling me you can find a listing for me and my office is in Portland.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We appreciate the time that you've spent with us today talking about behavior change and the means of obtaining independence. So thank you for coming in and talking with us. We've been talking with Dr. Elizabeth Kubik, clinical psychologist who practices here in the Portland area. Happy Independence Day.

Beth Kubik:

Thanks. Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed talking with you all about anxiety and codependency and habit change.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

In today's show, we spent time with Peggy Woodcock from Reiki partners and psychologist Dr. Elizabeth Kubik. For more information on our guests or on our show, go to drlisabelisle.com read our related bountiful blog on bountifulpath.com like us on Facebook or sign up for our E. News. We appreciate your taking the time to spend time with us Every week. The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast. We hope you download our podcasts regularly and go back and listen to the ones you may have missed. We also hope that you'll share your insights and feedback with us and let us know if there's topics you'd like us to cover. Thank you for being part of our world. May you have a bountiful life.