Into the Woods #44

Lindsay Bourgoine:

People that go outdoors are often much more relaxed and kind of in tune with themselves. We don't necessarily need to take the technology away from the outdoors. There are a lot of cool apps these days where you can hold your phone over a plant and it will help you identify. And I think that a way to kind of address getting the next generation outside is by connecting those things so it's not scary and it's not taking away from all the ways that kids today feel connected.

Corporal John Macdonald:

We are a unique state. We have a coastline that's 3,000 plus miles long, I believe, and a mountain system, mountain trail system and lakes and the four seasons and the leaves that change and the snowmobiling. And we have all kinds of things that other states don't, or they may have pieces of it, but we have it all. We've got the best playground and most people know that and that's what drives our economy.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Also available on I iTunes as a podcast and today we will be speaking with Lindsay Burgoyne of the Appalachian Mountain Club in addition to John McDonald of the Maine Warden Service. With me in the studio, as always, is my co host, Genevieve Morgan, the Wellness editor for Maine Magazine. Hi Genevieve.

Genevieve Morgan:

Good morning, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Into the woods is an important topic and we initially thought about doing this as a hiking show and realized that it doesn't really matter how you get into the woods. Whether it's hiking or paddling a canoe up a stream, it's just important to get out there and especially here in Maine. So this is why Genevieve and I decided to talk about this today?

Genevieve Morgan:

We did. We have many, many miles and acres of forest land in Maine, and it's one way that you can exercise outdoors to your activity level. Whether you're a walker, a runner, a jogger, a mountain biker, we have this whole outdoor experience that can really facilitate exercise. And as we know, exercise is one of the biggest boons to health.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

As you know, I'm actually not. I mean, I love running, and I'm not an inside exerciser. So this is an important topic for me, especially because it pains me at times to drive by gyms where I see people looking out the window and running towards nothing. Now, I have. Anybody who is going to a gym and doing this, please do not be offended. I just know that, you know, especially in Maine, just right down the street, you could walk around. If you're in Portland, walk around Back Bay. That would get you outside. Or you could go to the Audubon Preserve in Falmouth.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, you bring up a good point, Lisa, that people don't really equate a walk around Back Cove or a walk in the woods with exercise. Exercise is going to the gym and, you know, bearing through a rigorous activity, you know, with everyone's frowning when they're looking in the mirror and groaning. But you have a very different idea about what exercise is and how. And it's actually being proven now that your idea is healthier for people. And what is it?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, you pointed me towards this interesting study that is our UNE Wellness innovation this week, which has to do with the number of hours of exercise and outside exercise and the fact that there's this bell curve. So talk to us a little bit about that, because this is something you found.

Genevieve Morgan:

There are many studies coming out now. One was in the Lancet a year ago. One was recently at the. I think it's the Sports and Fitness College in San Francisco that shows that moderate exercise improves longevity. And we're gonna be reading about it, but I think that this is something that people need to focus on, that too little exercise and too much exercise are equally stressful for the body. I know that that has to do with free radicals and oxidative stress, but maybe you can speak to the actual physiology of what goes on with that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

One of the things that happens in our very busy lives is that we kind of get ourselves amped up to approach whatever it is that we need to approach to get in there and work hard. And we spend time in our computers, we spend time running around, spend time with our children. And, I mean, there's a lot of sort of adrenaline that we kind of have to force into our bodies. And when we exercise, there actually needs to be. There has to be like a relaxation phase to that, because it's kind of like running a marathon and running and running and running and running and running. And then at the end of the race, just continuing to run some more or not giving yourself time off. The body really needs that activity, but it also needs to rest. So exercise needs to accomplish. In Chinese medicine, we call it yin and yang. It needs to have a restful phase, and it needs to have an active phase. And what you're talking about, this bell curve, is very much a Chinese medicine idea that's been around for thousands of years, that not enough means you just. You don't have enough yang activity. You don't have enough sort of energy, active energy. And too much exercise means you're not getting enough yin activity. You're not getting that very inward, peaceful relaxation state. And this is what all the studies are showing now is that people who exercise too much and end up having really, really low body fat and stressing their joints and their muscles, I mean, their longevity is impaired. But people who don't exercise enough, they get overweight and they have lax and their muscles and their longevity is impaired as well.

Genevieve Morgan:

And I think your point about getting out into nature and why you like to actually run a route around has to do with adherence to exercise, that going to the gym and putting yourself through the paces can actually have the physiological changes that you might want, but the tendency is you're going to get bored of it and you're not going to want to keep doing it. I think our point with this show is to say you can do it moderate exercise every day for the rest of your life, at whatever age you're at, is much better than just signing up for an aerobics class for six weeks and then dropping it. So do something that you really love. And chances are, if it's outdoors, especially in summer in Maine, you're gonna get hooked and you're gonna want to do it all the time. And that's probably more healthy than the up and down, the roller coaster.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It is, really. I completely agree with that. And as somebody who just, as I said, hates to exercise indoors, I want to be very clear that when people exercise in the gym, and actually my practice is in, has a gym right next to it. So I very much believe in gyms and working out and having that ability to do things inside, especially in Maine, where it's snowy and Cold. So I think that's really great because that can be a good routine for some people. But I just think it has to be balanced because in addition to sort of what it does for your body, there's also a mental and emotional well being and there's also an air quality issue. I mean, how many times have you gone to the gym in the middle of the winter or even in the middle of the summer and been right next to the guy who is coughing and sneezing? And it's a really.

Genevieve Morgan:

It just.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That can't be good for your body.

Genevieve Morgan:

Some people don't wipe down those bars.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That's. That's right. Whereas if you go outside there, there's still people coughing and sneezing, but they're not necessarily next to you. They're not necessarily putting their hands on things you're going to touch. So there's that health thing, then there's the mental and emotional well being piece. I've been part of the Maine Magazine 48 Hours project that's been going on since January where we go out and we go out into the world. And from the staff and the writers and also I just happen to be invited along to do this. We've gone out on boats, we've gone out on bikes, we've gone out hiking. And it's a very different experience. It really tunes you into the place that you are visiting in a way that you just can't get tuned in if you don't get out there and do it well.

Genevieve Morgan:

And I will add that at the Body Architect, which is the gym that joins your practice, they have built their facilities so that the view when you're working out in the gym is expansive. I think there's almost what, a 240 degree view. So even though you might not be in the woods, you're actually looking at fields and water and the woods. So that's pretty neat. I mean, that's kind of a great combination.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes. And they have a deck that opens out onto a roof. So they do yoga and qigong out there. And the owners and founders, Stephen and Antonia Anderson and Steven Anderson actually was on our light show last fall. They very much believe in the importance of bringing the outside in and bringing what you're doing on the inside out into the world. And they're very much about energy. So it's all, I think what we're doing is fine tuning our ability to stay active and well in this world and to increase our healthy lifespans.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, and certainly our guests today are going to help us do that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That's absolutely right. We're going to have a great time talking with Lindsey Burgoyne of the Appalachian Mountain Club and also John McDonald of the Maine Warden Service as they really give their take on going into the woods. I think it'll be a very helpful show for those of you who are just looking for that little bit of inspiration to get out there and enjoy Maine or wherever it is you're listening from the Dr. Lisa radio hourm Podcast is pleased to be sponsored by the University of New England. As part of our affiliation with the University of New England, we offer a segment we call Wellness Innovations. This week's Wellness Innovation comes from the New York Times. Moderation is a sweet spot for exercise for people who exercise but fret that they really should be working out, more, new studies may be soothing. The amount of exercise needed to improve health and longevity is modest, and more is not necessarily better. That is the message of the newest and perhaps most compelling of the studies presented recently at the annual meeting of the American College of Sports Medicine in San Francisco, in which researchers at the University of South Carolina School of Public Health and other institutions combed through the health records of 52,656American adults. The researchers found that running in moderation provided the most benefits Those who ran 1 to 20 miles per week at an average pace of about 10 or 11 minutes per mile. In other words, jogging reduced their risk of dying during the study more effectively than those who didn't run, those who, admittedly few, ran more than 20 miles a week, and those who typically ran at a pace swifter than seven miles an hour. This modest amount of exercise led to an increase of, on average, 6.2 years in the lifespan of male joggers and 5.6 years in women. There's further confirmation of that idea in the findings of a large study of exercise habits published last year in the Lancet, which showed that among a group of more than 416,000 Taiwanese adults, 92 minutes a week of moderate exercise, like walking, gentle jogging or cycling, increased lifespan by about three years and decreased the risk of mortality from any cause by about 14%. In that study, those who embarked on more ambitious exercise programs did gain additional risk reduction, but the benefits plateaued rapidly. For each further 15 minutes per day of moderate exercise that someone completed beyond the first 92, his or her mortality risk fell, but by only about another 4%. For information on moderation in exercise as a wellness innovation, go to drlisabelisle.com for information on the University of New England, visit une.edu.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

On today's Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast, our theme is into the Woods. And as part of this we are speaking with Lindsey Burgoyne, who is a Maine policy associate with the Appalachian Mountain Club. So thank you for coming in and talking to us today.

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Lindsay, thank you very much. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And Genevieve Morgan is also excited to be here. She is every week. She's the wellness editor for Maine Magazine.

Genevieve Morgan:

Yes, I am. And I one of the things on my bucket list is to walk the Appalachian Trail.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So great.

Genevieve Morgan:

I'm excited to have you here.

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Well, the AMC manages a lot of the Appalachian Trail, but the organization that manages the trail is actually called the Appalachian Trail Conservancy. And I will say that the AMC often gets mixed up with that. But we do a lot to manage and maintain the trail, specifically in New Hampshire and Maine and in other regions of the Mid Atlantic. Send like something close to the heart, right?

Genevieve Morgan:

You run the huts?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Yep. Yeah, we run the huts in New Hampshire and we also have lodges here in Maine.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It sounds like it actually kind of takes a lot of different people working on this project to keep trails open and workable in the state of Maine. Can you speak to that somewhat?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Yeah. So just a quick background. The AMC kind of focuses on recreation, education and conservation. So it's a very broad organization and we kind of have different folks in those three different sectors that definitely, you know, work together. But there is kind of this recreational aspect where we do maintain a lot of trails. We have a lot of wonderful volunteers that do that work for us, as well as some professional trail crew and whatnot. And we do maintain quite a bit of trail in Maine along the at a lot in the Bigelows and the area around Sugarloaf. And then we actually manage and own and operate 125 miles of trail in what we call our Maine Woods Initiative, which is we own 67,000 acres of land up east of Moosehead Lake in that region. Most people enter through Greenville or Brownville, Maine to get to the property, but that's all open public access. And we actually have about 10 full time staff on the ground up there that work up there in our lodges and on our lands.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Tell me how you yourself got to be interested in this.

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Well, I grew up here in Maine and I'm very proud of that, as most Mainers are. And I was really fortunate to be from a family where my, my father specifically took me outside quite a bit with the whole family. Lots of hiking and climbing. I climbed Mount Katahdin every winter with my dad. I started that when I was 15. So I just did my 10th trip this year, which was really exciting for me and I feel really lucky. I think Maine is a really special state where there are a lot of different organizations that take so many different folks outside, have lots of low level, introductory level outdoor experience for low cost. And I think that's really important. And one of my passions is kind of sharing that with the rest of the state because I think it's really important that people see that. And as for the amc, I actually worked in the White Mountain huts all through college. I did that every summer. And that was really important to me. And that's kind of where my social group lies or all my hut kid friends. And that was really important to me. And I feel very lucky that I was able to start working for the of amount full time and do a little bit more of the less of the guest service and a little bit more of kind of the conservation policy and promoting our lodges and getting kids and families outside.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What are some of the core things you learned as a child growing up in Maine? Hiking Mount Katahdin every winter? What are some of the things that you came away with?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

I think being outside is really important and kind of just the mentality that goes with it. I think, you know, people that go outdoors are often much more relaxed and kind of in tune with themselves. And I think, you know, obviously as we see this kind of generation that's kind of addicted to technology, that it's more difficult to get people to kind of take a step away from that and connect with nature, which I think is so important for health and well being and obviously with obesity rates. But I think the important part and something that I personally believe is as well as the AMC is we don't necessarily need to take the technology away from the outdoors. A lot of people think, you know, like, I am a person that would love to leave my cell phone at home while I go out hiking, but I also think, you know, you don't have to do that. And there are a lot of cool apps these days where you can, you know, hold your phone over a plant and it will help you identify. And I think that a way to kind of address getting the next generation outside is by kind of connecting those things. So it's not scary and it's not taking away from all the ways that kids today feel connected.

Genevieve Morgan:

How accessible is the land up east of Moosehead? I mean, is it something you could drive to with your family and go for the day?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Yeah, Obviously we struggle with being far away from population centers in Maine, so it is quite a trip. It's about three hours from Portland, but there's so many things to do up there, and a lot of people really enjoy going up there and staying for multiple nights. We own and operate three lodges up there, and so folks can stay overnight. And that's a really great way for some folks that aren't necessarily accustomed to the outdoors to get acquainted with it. You know, we have everything from a very rustic kind of backcountry lodge to a very new lodge Gorman Chairback that we opened and renovated this spring. And that has a sauna and flannel sheets, and it's pretty cushion. It's really nice. So if, you know, you're not looking for the camping and the rustic experience, there's something kind of for everyone up there. We do also have camping on the property and a lean too, for folks to set a tent in or sleep inside. So it's kind of a multitude of opportunities. It is more of an overnight destination. People kind of seem to think that, you know, it's worth traveling a little bit longer. But it is all public access land, so you can kind of enter the property at any point. And there's everything from paddling. The AMC has a lot of canoes up there on a lot of the remote ponds, fishing, hunting, hiking, camping. So it's kind of, you know, a lot of folks head to the White Mountains, to our huts, and that's obviously very traditional kind of hiking land. And in Maine, it's much more kind of rolling hills. It does have. The Appalachian Trail does cross our property, the Chairback Range. But, you know, there's kind of a multitude of different activities that you can do. So there's kind of something for everyone. And in the winter it's not. You can't drive to the lodges in the winter just because of the roads. And it's all ski accessible. And we're actually just as busy in the winter as we are in the summer in terms of. People love to ski cross country, lodge to lodge. And we have a great service where you wear your day pack and they haul your gear. So it's pretty nice and really reasonable distances in between. The lodges are all connected by trails.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Give US a little background on the Appalachian Mountain Club.

Lindsay Bourgoine:

So, as I mentioned, we do kind of focus on recreation, education and conservation. And our mission is about kind of promoting the understanding and the protection of the environment. You know, mountains, lakes, trails.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How long ago did this come into being? What's the history?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

So, yeah, so in the late 1800s, there's more or less a. A group of folks from Boston who became really interested in helping to protect the outdoors. And they specifically love the region of the White Mountains in New Hampshire. So in the 1870s, they formed the Appalachian Mountain Club and decided to kind of to start protecting the land. So it started more or less kind of as an outing club. And I think we are the oldest conservation recreation organization in the country. And I think one example of that importance is I work on a lot of policy issues. So I'm in the Maine State House quite a bit. And when I. When I testify on a bill or when I share information, you know, on behalf of our members, it's so important to have that recreation aspect in the. In perspective, in the conservation kind of argument, if you will. We're not going up there and saying, you know, we want to conserve this land for, you know, just to conserve this land. We're saying we want to conserve this land or protect the environment, because we are people who enjoy the environment, and we go out there and we use it, and we're stewards of the land, and we hike and we paddle and we hunt and we fish. So I think that's really important that we kind of tied recreation and conservation together. And of course, with that, environmental education and outdoor education seems like a very important pillar. So we're doing a lot of programming for kids and families. As.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What are some of the things that you're working on from a conservation standpoint?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

So here in Maine, I work on a variety of conservation issues. I work a lot in the Mahouse region, which kind of spans the border of Maine and New Hampshire. There's an initiative there that's about 10 different conservation organizations from state, federal and regional organizations that all really care about the protection of that area and the importance for kind of economic development in a recreational economy. So we do a lot of work and just try to communicate. A lot of the work I do is in coalition. It's extremely important in, I would say, almost all sectors of the world to kind of communicate with the other folks that are interested in doing what you're doing. So usually when there's a policy issue that we're concerned about in the state, there's a variety of organizations that will come together over that issue to work on it. And a good example of that is the Land for Maine's Future program, which funds conservation, working farms, working waterfront lands in the state. State and basically a group like a land trust or even the amc. We actually did apply for funding when we built trails on our 67,000 acres for some assistance in terms of funding and that state funding. And we just passed a bond through the legislature. So that will go to the voters in November to see if they would like to support adding some funding to that program to support more projects.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, you two are lifelong Mainers, so I don't need to speak to you about this, but one of the reasons Lisa and I wanted to do do this show in the middle of summer is that Maine experiences a huge growth in tourism, but it's always east of the turnpike. But the Appalachian Mountain Club really focuses. There's so much in the rest of the state west of the turnpike, and those of us who live here know that. But how do you go about helping people discover that whole other part of the state?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

Well, I think, first of all, we were really excited about going to Piscataquist County. It's a beautiful area. We feel really fortunate to have found this wonderful property there. And there's a lot of. We've done a lot of work, kind of local outreach and make sure that we're engaging and working with the local population. We work with the Piscataquis Tourism Development, Piscataquist Tourism Authority, and the Piscataquist Economic Development Council as well to try to work on that. But I think it is difficult, as you said, to try to promote kind of what isn't along the 95 Turnpike corridor in Maine. But a lot of folks that have had kind of AMC destination experiences, traditional experiences in the huts, maybe folks that have gone to the huts for a long time that are really looking for something new. So it's kind of been about capturing that audience and encouraging them to make the trek. And we found that that seems to be working for them. Most part. And I think there are many organizations in Maine that are doing such wonderful things, wonderful programming outside. You know, obviously Maine, Hudson Trails is doing great things in the Carabasset region, building more Hudson Trails. And I think kind of as the publicity as a whole grows for the state, that, you know, we'll kind of become more present. But I think that, you know, we're really excited to be there and we think we're hoping we're bringing a lot of people into that area as well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What inspires you personally to continue to do this work?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

As I said, I feel really fortunate to have grown up in Maine and to have been a person that was taken outside by their family. And kind of the more people I meet from urban population centers and other folks my age, they weren't afforded that same opportunity. And I think that's really important. And so trying to figure out ways that I can kind of engage the most people in the outdoors and kind of bring that positive first time experience to folks. That's what kind of gets me up and going every day. And I think that's really important. And through my job, I'd also say that I've really been inspired by the amount of collaboration that's kind of present in Maine. And I think that is really unique to Maine. I think that in other states there aren't as many organizations kind of working together and collaborating. I think there's a little bit more of a competition mentality. And as we are a regional organization, we have seen that in some of our other regions. But in Maine, people really want to work together and I think that's really important. And I think if we're really interested in collective impact and change in terms of getting more Mainers outside, that's what we need and that's how to accomplish that. So that's inspiring as well to see people that are really excited to work together.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Genevieve and I both went to Bowdoin and when we were going through, they were really getting a reputation as having a great environmental education opportunity for their students. I see more and more people in their 20s and 30s who are really dedicated to environmentalism. Do you see that? And if so, why do you think that that's taking place?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

I think it's definitely been brought to the forefront in terms of, you know, younger people. I think a lot of folks who go to college will have kind of a traditional college kind of pre orientation program that takes place in the outdoors. That's one way to get folks outside, but I think it's just kind of becoming More of a popular thing and more of an accepted thing that it's important. And environmental education has been kind of coming more to the forefront in school curriculum as well as kind of on the national front. And. And there's been some legislation that folks are trying to push nationally for the no Child Left Inside Act. And that kind of recognizes for the first time the words environmental education from a legal standpoint. So I think there's a lot of progress there and a lot of more understanding on the importance and health benefits of getting kids active outside. We call it nature deficit disorder. And I think that as that becomes more popular, more organizations are really interested in getting kids hooked outside. And I think it's always been something that all of us know that we feel good about going outside and we feel happier and we don't have as much anxiety and we're not as depressed and those things. But I think it's kind of being a little bit more scientifically proven, if you will, and brought to the forefront that, yeah, look at all these studies. It is healthier when kids are around dirt. They have less allergies and whatnot. So I think that kind of. That being brought to the forefront has allowed kind of for more of the development of environmental and outdoor education programs.

Genevieve Morgan:

It's also, for the most part, free. Doesn't take a lot of gear to go out and take a walk in the woods.

Lindsay Bourgoine:

You're right. And that's something we try to promote. I think a lot of times a barrier to getting outdoors is gear and is equipment. And I think we're really fortunate to have businesses like L.L. bean in the state who do so much to donate gear to different organizations. And the Bureau of Parks and Lands through the Maine Department of Conservation now has multiple gear trailers, as does Maine Winter Sports center, and they bring them around to try to let kids use that. But I think for me, one of the important things and for the AMC is to let people know that you don't have to gear up and you don't have to, you know, do everything to get outside, and you don't even have to get in a car to go outside with. We think that's really important not to tell people that they need to get in the car and drive to the outdoors, that going out in your own backyard in your flip flops is just fine.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Lindsey, how do people find out more about the Appalachian Mountain Club?

Lindsay Bourgoine:

So here in Maine, we do have an office in Portland and an office in Greenville. Our website is outdoors.org and we also have a chapter of volunteers in Maine that's very active. There are over 4000AMC members in Maine and they do over a hundred trips a year. All kinds of different hiking, biking, skiing trips. Most of them are free. And that website is amcmain.org and that's a really great group to get involved in if you're looking for kind of an introductory level experience. And they also do a lot of different kind of outdoor trainings, wilderness training. So if you're not necessarily comfortable in the outdoors, you can kind of learn about that. And they also do a great variety of kind of evening talks and potlucks where you can learn about different people's experiences. So if necessarily going outdoors isn't the first thing that you want to do, learning about it can be great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, we've been speaking with Lindsey Burgoyne, who is a Maine policy associate with the Appalachian Mountain Club, and we've really enjoyed having this conversation and we hope that people will get out into the woods.

Lindsay Bourgoine:

All right, thank you very much.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Today as part of our into the woods show, we are interviewing John McDonald, who is a corporal with the Maine Warden Service. Thank you for coming in today and speaking with us, John.

Corporal John Macdonald:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And I have Genevieve Morgan next to me, the wellness editor for Maine magazine.

Genevieve Morgan:

Hi, John. I'm wondering how many miles you walk in a day. If you're out there on the job.

Corporal John Macdonald:

It's going to be pretty boring if you ask me that, because I have an office job. But if you would ask a warden in northern Maine, it probably could be measured in miles. But for me, it's mostly walking to and from my truck and the miles are put on in the truck.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, let's talk about how you got to be a warden and what is the main warden service?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, the main warden service is the nation's oldest conservation law enforcement agency. We were established in 1880 and we have grown into a fairly complex agency responsible for many things. First and foremost, I guess is what we're most commonly known for is fish and wildlife enforcement, recreational vehicle law enforcement, and search and rescue anyone lost or missing in the woods. So it's a complex job. We also are state law enforcement officers, so we have the same authorities as the state police, but we concentrate on off road law enforcement.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how does one become a warden?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, actually, we're hiring right now and I get that question a lot. I'm also the recruiter for the department. So it is a complex testing system that takes about six months from submitting an application and taking physical fitness exams and different things. It involves written exams, oral boards, practical exams, making sure that people that we're hiring have knowledge of firearms and outdoor equipment. It's essential that they are people that hunt and fish to some degree, actually to a fairly high degree, that they're comfortable in the outdoors. And we certainly don't want applicants coming to us the first time they've handled a shotgun. To be in our interview, we need to have them to be fairly experienced. There's a swim test and a whole host of things. A polygraph examination and a psychological exam and an examination with a doctor. And this takes about 6 months time.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Is there a training program that one goes through?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Yeah. After that six months of hiring process, there's about a. Well, it's exactly 18 weeks that people that we are hiring go to the police academy and they go with all other police officers in the state, including deputy sheriffs and Portland police and state police. Everyone goes to that one academy. When game wardens graduate from that they continue on to the warden academy, which is an additional 12 weeks. So we get fairly extensive training.

Genevieve Morgan:

Do you find that there are challenges with different groups of people wanting to do different things in the same place? You Know, you have the hunters and then you have the recreational walkers. How do you manage that?

Corporal John Macdonald:

There can be conflicts. Most people recreate on private land, whether it's for hunting or snowmobiling or ATVing or hiking, whatever. So we really encourage and promote people accessing land with permission and trading land like it's their own. I hate to sound cliche, but that's the way it is. We are very fortunate in the state of Maine to have the open land and the private land that we do. And in many states that's very different. You can generally, in a lot of states that allow recreational vehicle activity on their land or recreational activities in general, you have to either pay a fee or, you know, there's a process by which you would access that land. But it's different in Maine. And I think we sometimes take it for granted that, you know, just because the land says no trespassing, that it's free to do as you please. But we encourage you to knock on doors and find out who landowners are to keep, to keep that relationship a good one. But there are conflicts, whether it's during hunting season or recreational vehicle use, people with snowmobiles and operating too close to homes, or with loud exhaust pipes that annoy people at 2 in the morning when they go by. I mean, there are conflicts that we manage and we anticipate them when the season comes, and we are kind of ready for that. But there are conflicts for sure.

Genevieve Morgan:

When you're out there. Well, one is out there camping or hunting or walking, and one of you guys comes strolling out of the woods. What is it that you're doing? What are you checking and how are you preserving the wilderness and safety?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, we are essentially protecting Maine. We're the insurance, I guess, so to speak, for people that come to Maine or live in Maine that enjoy the outdoors. So we are looking to be sure that people are in compliance with the law, that they're not, you know, for a hiker, I think you used as an example, or a camper, you know, we're probably checking a camper in conjunction with maybe their fishing activity, if they're camped on a lake, or maybe it's a hunting, maybe it's hunting season, or maybe they're just remote campers and they're canoeing or boating and we've interrupted them or encountered them during their trip, you know, a 200 mile canoeing trip or something. But we're looking for compliance with Maine's outdoor laws and to be sure that, that they're treating the land as they're supposed to not leaving behind a bunch of litter or operating their boats safely. They have their life jackets and their fishing licenses if they're doing that type of thing. So that's what we're doing. And it changes with the seasons, that's for sure.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Are there specific characteristics about the Maine wilderness that bring people from all over the country and really all over the world to experience our outdoors?

Corporal John Macdonald:

I think for sure there is. We are a unique state where we have a coastline that's 3,000 plus miles long, I believe, and a mountain system, mountain trail system and lakes and the four seasons and the leaves that change and snowmobiling. And we have all kinds of things that other states don't, or they may have pieces of it, but we have it all, so to speak. A lot of people refer to Maine as the Minne, Alaska, and we have very unique outdoor recreation opportunities. The native Maine wild brook trout is exclusive to Maine. Now, the Maine moose hunt is a very popular hunt that brings people from all over the world. And in the lower 48, it's hard to find the resources that, that you find in Maine, and we're lucky to have it. And people travel by the thousands up here. Anyone visiting the Kittery Toll right now, you're going to see boats and ATVs and campers streaming in from all over the place to come here to play. We've got the best playground, and most people know that, and that's what drives our economy.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And yet I believe as a culture, we're experiencing what people are calling nature deficit disorder. And there's actually, there's a book called the Last Child in the Woods. So despite the fact that we have all these people that are coming from places to be in Maine, we know that people are in general kind of heading away from nature, you know, going towards computers and going towards media. What have you seen to be the impact in your own family, in your own life, of this sort of thing happening?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, I have a daughter that's 17 months old, so I. She's not yet at the stage where she is getting influenced by other kids in school with electronic devices and things. It's something that we, in my family, she doesn't watch television. I think if she's watched 10 minutes of television, I'd be surprised. But in my family, the influence certainly is going to be geared towards other things that would occupy our time. But in general, we still check a lot of families that are boating or hunting or fishing or whatever, and they have small children with them. And whether I'VE seen a particular deficit disorder. I don't know, but it does seem to me like it wasn't like it was when I was a kid. Our attention is being diverted to different things now. Electronic devices or when I was a kid, you know, playing baseball and riding my bike and playing with a Tonka truck in the yard. When I was real little, that was what everyone was doing in my neighborhood. And now it's, I don't know, iPhones and the different electronic devices that I think can hold children's attention. And personally, I think it is an issue that if someone can't spend their time idle for an extended period of time, I think it's a little bit of an issue if you have to have some diversion. That's if you can't be away from your Facebook account or your telephone for an hour without having an anxiety attack, I think it's an issue.

Genevieve Morgan:

We have an influx of people who don't know the regulations in our state and who may be spending a lot of time indoors or at desks or on their computers. But they come in the middle of summer or in the middle of winter, but we're in summer, so we'll say summer. And they think they know what should be done on the water and in the mountains and in the woods, but it actually can put them at risk. And you were saying one of your jobs is search and rescue. So how did people do things safely in the Maine wilderness or what are the challenges there?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, they have to educate themselves on the laws. First of all, we have a unique radio station to us when they enter the state of Maine. It is based on the seasons and it gives people kind of a heads up, at least coming up through the turnpike to tune in to listen to an overview of what's the most common activity and where to go to find more information about it. So first of all, people need to take it upon themselves to learn about what they're doing for an activity. Vacations are oftentimes spur of the moment. Let's grab the boat and the kayaks and head to Maine and there may be a new law. Laws regarding that type of activity don't change a lot, but even familiarizing yourself with them is a good thing on a yearly basis. Towing skiers, for instance, you know, there's certain laws regarding towing a skier and the person having a life jacket on and having an observer in the boat in addition to the driver. There's some people that come up that truly may not know that law. And again, I hate to sound cliche, but not knowing the law really isn't a great excuse, but you should know about it. And a lot of our job is interpreting the law and explaining the law to people that may not otherwise know. And it isn't a black and white thing if you don't know the law. Whammy, going to get a ticket. There's a lot of investigation that goes into dealing with people and a lot of interviews and seeing what their level of intent is. So a lot of our job is education. It isn't just issuing summonses all the time.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And sometimes it is talking about search and rescue. We had Kate Braestrup on our show back in December, and as you know, she's the chaplain for the warden service and she's written a lot about the loss that is associated and the risk that is associated with going out into the woods and sometimes being unaware, sometimes being unlucky. What, what types of things have you seen that have really kind of provided lessons for you as a warden?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Yeah, well, yeah, we have seen a lot game wardens experience a lot of mistakes that other people make and the outcomes of that. And it does make you a little bit more prepared or educated, at least from our standpoint on how we recreate

Genevieve Morgan:

usually.

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, sometimes it's a lack of planning, a lack of thinking about the worst case scenarios. Sometimes it's truly becoming lost. If it's children, and we deal with a fair amount of children every year, we have about 500 thereabouts search and rescue calls each year. And a large majority of them are children. And this time of year is pretty dangerous. Even if they wander off into the woods, which a lot of kids do behind their homes or wherever it is. But if they're on a hiking trip or a fishing trip where they're unfamiliar, you know, dressing during the daytime, today you're going to be in probably shorts and a T shirt. But as soon as the sun sets, it's going to get very cold like it did last night. And quickly it becomes a safety concern with hypothermia. So, you know, In a situation like that, it's tough to get ahead of that, other than being right on top of your children all the time, which we know is not always possible. But for the adults going out, and it doesn't even have to be a remote area, but an unfamiliar area. Luckily, nowadays there are cell phones and we get a lot of cell phone calls and I am lost, but I don't know where I am. Please find me. And we try to use coordinates from the phone and cell phone towers to find them. But those that don't have cell phones, it's a major help for us to know where you were planning to go. So leaving a note or telling a loved one if they're not going with you, that, hey, I'm going to hike such and such section of the Appalachian Trail today, and I plan to be at this spot at this time so that at least there's some level of understanding where you are and an expectation that you're going to return at a certain time. So people that don't do that and they just go off for the day by themselves, or maybe there's two of them with no form of communication and no indication of where they're going and when they're going to return, it's a little bit of a needle in a haystack. We may find their vehicle at a trailhead and not know if they went north or south or how far they plan to go. And it's so much quicker to find people when we have a little bit of information like, yeah, I plan to go to Summit Pond or where, you know,

Genevieve Morgan:

how big is the wilderness in Maine, do you know?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, wilderness to me is uninhabited and untouched by humans. We have very little of that in Maine. You probably have to go to Canada or Alaska to find a true wilderness. But we have a lot of wild areas, for sure, and probably as much as any other state in the lower 48. And it's, you know, vast land uninterrupted by roads and homes and. And tar roads and those types of things. And we have a lot of that. We certainly have a lot of space with trees. So I couldn't tell you how many.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, and if you get into the woods and you're in the middle of that wild area, everything pretty much looks alike to the novice person.

Corporal John Macdonald:

Oh, yeah, for sure. And it's easy to get turned around if it's an overcast day when you can't see the sun. A lot of people, they know where the sun rises and sun sets, and if, you know, it's afternoon and the sun's off to your left, more than likely that's to the west. If you know the area and you can walk to the west and find a road, that's good. But if it's overcast or, excuse me, rainy or whatever, it can be very difficult and you'll get turned around very quickly.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What percentage of the search and rescue operations result in tragedy?

Corporal John Macdonald:

I don't have that statistic. I would say overwhelmingly it's a good outcome. You know, generally we find the people that we're looking for and sometimes it's we're looking for people that don't want to be found. So that is going to have a worse outcome and throw the statistics off a little bit. But because we look for people that have taken their own life, we look for people that don't want to be found. Maybe they committed a crime and they've run off into the woods. So usually those cases you have an idea what the outcome is going to be. But I'd say most of the people we go and look for, we find whether it's alive or deceased. But most people, yeah, we, we retrieve them alive and return them that their family's happy. But I don't have the statistics on exactly.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And when there is a bad outcome, how do you deal with that?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, it's kind of going by the numbers. We have pretty strict protocol on notifications and it's a very sensitive situation with a family. We actually call Kate Brae Strip in most situations, our chaplain and she works as a liaison between our department and the family and helps tremendously. But it's relaying the facts to the family and the circumstances and crossing our T's, dotting our I's and make sure that everything's done appropriately and getting a message out kind of as a wrap up when that's done that this is what took place and these are the things that they should have done. And please be cautious that you don't do them.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how do you and other wardens deal with this personally and emotionally?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Sometimes it can be very tough. There are some triggers that sometimes go off, whether it's you're investigating someone that's died, that's maybe it's a child and you have one of your own, or maybe it's a person with Alzheimer's and you have a person with that in your family. And it can be tough investigating crashes that involve fatalities, that can be tough. And making death notifications and those things. So police work in general involves that not just the warden service, but we see and do things that most people don't want to do in that case, but it's again, doing it by the numbers and doing it professionally and with some high level of care for the family.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

It sounds like, on balance, the time that you are able to spend doing things, promoting the Maine woods and being out in the outdoors and educating and interacting, that far outweighs some of the difficulties associated with the job.

Corporal John Macdonald:

Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. There's my own statistic or percentage in my mind. Nothing to do with the department's view, I guess, But I'd say 95% of the time this job is fantastic. It provides you with some great opportunities. And we're promoting an outdoor recreation and state that's, I think, second to none. And we're kind of the front door of the department and the game wardens are, and we're who a lot of

Genevieve Morgan:

people see well, so that all of our listeners can have happy outcomes when they go into the woods. We're talking about letting people know where you're going, taking a map if you can, good equipment, water, food. Any other tips for our listeners out there?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Just use your head. If you're going to have a day of fun here in Maine, try not to have all your fun on one day. We see that sometimes everybody, some people come up and they try to use, you know, exhaust all their fun in one day because they're here to play. But use your head. Plan cell phones. Tell someone where you're going when you plan to return. Follow the laws. The life jacket laws are there for a reason. We are responsible for retrieving bodies from the bottom of lakes, and we've yet to find one with a life jacket on.

Genevieve Morgan:

So how about encountering wildlife? A bear or a wolf or something?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Yeah, that happens.

Genevieve Morgan:

What should people do?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Well, there's a variety of situations, and our encounters with wildlife are typically very good ones. Here in Maine, it's understanding that their wild animals don't treat them as pets. You know, most commonly right now, we're dealing with nuisance wildlife. We call them nuisance wildlife, but basically it's wildlife that have young that they're trying to bring up and they're out during the daytime when people typically don't see them because the mothers are trying to get food and they're opportunists. They like to raid your gas grill and your garbage cans and your bird feeders. And it's understanding that they do that this time of year. But we get hundreds, if not thousands of calls. I have a raccoon in my backyard or I have a red fox in my backyard. What do I do? And you know, it's using your head, taking away the temptations that's bringing them there. First of all, certainly don't go after them, but a bear at the bird feeder certainly don't go after them. Usually clapping your hands, banging some pots and pans will scare them. They're much more scared of us than we are them. But yeah, that's the day in the life this time of year.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How do people find more of this type of helpful information or find out more about the Maine Warden Service?

Corporal John Macdonald:

Yeah, well, online is probably the quickest way for people if they're looking that way. And it's main fishandwildlife.com it's me fishwildlife.com and first, anything specific to the warden Service? It's maingame warden.com and there's a whole host of information there with laws and rules and tips and things like that for people to look at.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And for those people who are interested in hearing the Kate Braestrup interview that we've talked about, they can go to our website and listen to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour podcast podcast that features Kate and also Genevieve Morgan wrote recently an article that is coming out, I think in the July issue of Maine Magazine, so people can certainly read more about her version of the Maine Warden Service there. So we appreciate your coming in. We've been Talking to John McDonald, a corporal in the Maine Warden Service. Thank you for talking to us about going into the woods.

Corporal John Macdonald:

You are very welcome. Thanks a lot.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Also available via podcast on itunes. Today's guests included Lindsey Burgoyne of the Appalachian Mountain Club and John McDonald of the Maine Warden Service. We thank you for listening and hope that you have gained valuable insights which are applicable to your own lives. We hope that you'll take a moment to like us on Facebook, visit drlisabelisle.com and perhaps let us know what you think. We've gotten many good ideas from our listeners about future shows and have already incorporated some of these into what we've been doing. We know that we continue to build a community of people such as yourself that believe in the health and wellness of individuals, families, communities and the world at large. We appreciate your being a part of our world. This is Dr. Lisa Belisle. May you have a bountiful life.