John Hathaway, CEO and president of Shucks Maine Lobster

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

John Hathaway has owned companies all over the world, including a successful real estate development firm. He returned to his home state of Maine to open Chuck's Maine Lobster, a business that supplies raw lobster meat to international and local chefs. Thanks for coming in today.

John Hathaway:

Thank you, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So tell me about your transition from real estate to lobster. It sounds like you've done more than one thing in your life.

John Hathaway:

I've done a lot of things in my life.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

All right.

John Hathaway:

I think that's pretty much who I am, is I'm more of a dreamer than I am a good businessman and I like to follow my dreams. I think it's important for people to have to do what they love to do and find their passion, and that's what I try to teach my children and I think that's critical to a successful life.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You grew up in Gardiner?

John Hathaway:

I grew up in Gardiner, Maine. My family, my dad's family has been in this country since the Mayflower and the first Hathaway came right after the Revolutionary War, when he fought in the Revolutionary War and was awarded 40 acres in Buckfield, Maine. So on the other end. My mother's parents were Irish immigrants who worked in the shoe factories.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So how did they end up meeting one another?

John Hathaway:

There was a shoe factory in the old days in Gadra. My parents, my grandparents worked on that. And my dad was there and the greatest generation. And he came back from the war and met my mother and married her and had three great kids and a wonderful life in God. To me, wonderful parents. I think family's just really the key to everything.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So tell me how their influence caused you to go down this path of following dreams and feeling how important it was to follow passion.

John Hathaway:

That's a good question. I think they were just loving parents, you know, like most kids have made. It's a small town and working class parents, and they just spent a lot of time with us and loved us and encouraged us to do things. And at a young age I was, I mean, I was always in business, I guess I was always selling Kool Aid or delivering newspapers or raking blueberries, doing what Maine kids do. And then as I got a little older, I was very fortunate to go to get a scholarship to attend Phillips Exer Academy in New Hampshire. And for a small town kid from Maine, that was quite an eye opening experience I had. You know, I met Kennedys and Rockefellers and the Coors boys who owned Coors beer and the Miller boys who own Miller beer and a lot of people. But what it taught me, I think, was that you can compete out there, that if you do have the passion and find the passion, that you can achieve your dreams. You know, if you can dream it, you can do it. And I think we need to instill that in young people today.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Why real estate? What was it about real estate that, oh, interested you?

John Hathaway:

Well, let's see, I went to. From there I went to college in Boston and I kept working and you know, as a busboy in a restaurant, I scalped a lot of tickets, which actually paid my way through college and law school. And luckily at that time, the Celtics and the Bruins were very successful and I did quite well. And that was a fun experience. And then when I got out of law school, there was one job that I wanted, and it was actually for a guy from South Portland who was the very first sports attorney in the country. And I got a job with him in the 43rd floor of the Prudential Center. And on about the second day, a guy in another office came in and said, oh, you're from Maine, right? And I said, yeah. He goes, you're a friend of Randy's I said, yeah. And he said, just want to let you know this isn't really what you think it is. And he was right. And after a week, I walked out the door. My mother cried, but that was okay. I went on and married a wonderful woman who's from Canada. We opened the first Mexican restaurant in Canada, actually in Toronto. And you asked me before about advice. You know, what advice? I actually talked to a very, very successful guy who owned a chain of restaurants and he said, oh, if you want to be in this for 10 years, you'll do very well. And I decided, okay, I don't want to be in it for 10 years. So we're going to look for something else. And a friend of mine told me about houses that were selling in Baltimore, in inner city Baltimore for a dollar. And I said, okay, I think I can afford that. We bought a house, we fixed it up, we sold it, we bought another one, sold it, bought a few more at auction and sold those, and then kind of just followed, followed that path and followed that dream and got into other. We went further south and got into developing national award winning subdivisions and some commercial real estate and really, really enjoyed. Was great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So when you say your mother cried because you.

John Hathaway:

Well, I had a job, you had a job. And for her it was like, great. You know, I was like. The first thing I learned about being a lawyer was you're solving other people's problems. And again, I go back to trying to find out who I am and I think I'm much better at creating my own and just doing that. And that's, you know, if you can find those problems and solve those problems, you can do very well and you can help people along the way. And for me, that was. Turned out to be more of my passion, which is why I got into the lobster business. We live in Kennebunkport and we have five children and they all work different places in the summer. And I thought, okay, it'd be nice if they could all work together. So we opened a little seafood restaurant, a very small one, and all my kids worked in it. My boys were 7 and 9 and they worked the fish market and my daughters were cooked and waited and everything else. And it kind of dawned on us when the tourists would come in that they loved being in Maine and they wanted to celebrate with Maine lobster. But really it wasn't the animal that they wanted, it was the food. And there's a big difference. And I think the industry still hasn't entirely learned that it's developing, but I think There's a long way yet for the industry to go. And so I heard about an oyster company in New Orleans who was selling warm water Gulf oysters to California. And because of the vibrio, California said, no, we're not going to buy them from you anymore. So they invested in this technology that was initially developed by NASA called high pressure processing. And I went down and brought some Maine lobsters down to see it. And what it actually did for them was it actually, you put it in water at very high pressure and it actually shucked the oyster inside the shell. And so that's also. It took care of all the pathogens and the bacteria, vibrio, whatever in there, and it just made it a totally clean product. And so I went down there, brought the lobster. And what amazed me was that when you take the lobster out of the machine and you open the shell, you can actually. The raw meat actually slides right out. And you can't do that with a lobster. You know, you can cook it, but if you're a chef, which is generally our market, if you're a chef, then you, you want something that you can put your own taste to. You don't buy a cooked steak and then recook it to sell it to you in a fancy restaurant. You, you want to. But again, you don't want that live animal either. You want that wonderful Maine lobster meat in its purest form, so you can add your touch to it. And lobster is, you know, it's a celebration food. That's the story of Maine. And back when we had the restaurant, we used to run the World Lobster Eating Championship. And we'd have three or four thousand people come in and Badland booker, Badlands booker, who was the, one of the big eaters, you know, he would get up there and he would lead the cheer and he'd say, When I say Maine, you say. And everybody would shout out, lobster. And that's the story of Maine. And it's a great story because lobster is, you know, one man, one boat. They're out there. It's not big giant companies going out with big boats and taking it off the bottom. And it's just a beautiful story and it's a beautiful product. And again, it's wild caught and people love it and like to celebrate with it. So I think that's really what drew me to the industry, but also drew me to the fact that the industry needed some innovation. And that's why after I left New Orleans, I came back and I bought a $2 million high pressure machine and didn't know what I was doing, but hired a couple great people, and we started developing products. And we went to Brussels to the International Seafood show the first year, and we won first prize for best new seafood product in the world. And we didn't have a customer, so I said, okay, we need customers, but at least we're starting out on the right foot. And it's been an adventure ever since, you know, but it's a lot of fun. And again, the product makes people very happy because people love to celebrate, and I eat very well, so it's fun.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Now, you talk about wanting to find your own problems and your own solutions to your own problems. So when you're talking about lobster, the problem was that you have to get the meat out of the actual.

John Hathaway:

Well, I think there were two things back at that time. One was, again, there's the whole issue of. Of people actually, what do they want? You know, do they. People want to see the lobster. They want to come to Maine to see the lobster. But when they're in a restaurant or they're at home someplace, they don't really want to take a live animal and put it in a pot of boiling water and then have to tear it apart to get to the food. They really want food. So a couple things that, when I started out, that I was really trying to. Tried to encourage people to do was the lobster roll, right? Like the lobster roll is, people love lobster rolls, but they don't have to fight the animal to get it, but they're delicious. And you don't have to ship that live animal across the country to get it to someplace in California that wants to sell a lobster roll. And, you know, for yourself, in the last 10 years, how popular now lobster rolls are, how they've become. And so I think it was that whole innovation thing and the fact that chefs needed the best part of the lobster without. If you're in New York City, you don't want live animals crawling around in the back of your restaurant, and you're paying expensive help and expensive real estate. You know, you can't do that. So those are problems that we. I think we're trying to solve. And I think the industry has come a long way, but I think there is a lot more innovation that needs to be done. I think that, for instance, there's the marketing, the main lobster marketing collaborative, which goes out, which I have to say, I totally disagree with what they're trying to do. They're trying to sell new shell lobster and say that the meat is great, but they're trying to sell it all over the country like they were in San Francisco last week. Well, that's great, except that new shell lobster doesn't travel well. And what do you want at the other end? Somebody gets it and, you know, a bunch of them are dead. Like, what's that experience? That's not a good experience for somebody that's paying a lot of money for live Maine lobster and wants that celebration and serve it to their customers. Right. The other thing is, you can see in the summertime when people are eating it and the reason it's soft shell is because the lobster is growing into the shell so it's not full of meat. So what's that experience for people? They feel cheated. So really what I think we need to be doing is keeping that lobster in Maine and creating value with that lobster here with the meat. And there's all kinds of products that we could develop. And at the same time, we're keeping jobs in the state of Maine that we're not creating right now. And I kind of liken it to. To the timber business. Like, okay, you cut down your natural resource. Do you ship it to China? You know, and it gets there and you make a few pennies and then they do something with it and ship it back. It doesn't make sense to me. You're much better off to make lumber or furniture or something right here in Maine and create something with the main brand and create main jobs. It's the same thing. When we sell lobster, Maine lobster, to the processes in Canada, by federal law, they have to then put on their package that it's a product of Canada. Okay. So they sell it back into the US and everybody thinks, oh, this is a product of Canada. Well, yeah, but it's really Maine lobster. And, you know, since I've been in the business the last 10 years or so, I think there are probably about four major processes that have gone out of business, and there's probably four left. And so I think something needs to happen in the industry to change that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You raise a good point. If people are eating Kobe beef, they're not sending the cows over.

John Hathaway:

They don't send the cows over for us to. You don't go to Hannaford and buy a chicken, a live chicken, and say, okay, I'm going to come home and, you know, turn this into chicken breast. It doesn't work that way anymore.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So why did we get to this place where we were shipping the lobsters in the shell to parts unknown?

John Hathaway:

Well, I think the real issue is why are we still Promoting that, right? I mean, in the beginning, you can see it. And now we are selling a lot to China. And it's a supply and demand business. There's no doubt about it. And the supply. When a few years ago the supply was increasing, the price was lower, so you could process more stuff. Today, that's different, and the price is going up and up. But that's why we have to be more innovative, I think, and utilize that natural resource so it helps. It's more sustainable and economically than it is for the fishermen and for the people who work in the industry and the processing business and the chefs and everybody else. Speaking about sustainability, when I first got into it, one of the things I didn't understand was why the industry didn't have certification from msc, which is Marine Stewardship Council Sustainability. So I jumped in and started that. And it took six years. And when I first started out going around talking to groups and fishermen and stuff, people would. They'd shout me down, literally. And I say, look, you're already doing these things. You're pretty heavily regulated now. You're already doing this to make it a sustainable product. And look, the catch is going up every year, so the sustainability is good. And what customers want to know outside of the state of Maine, if you're trying to get your products sold, you know, to chefs or to anybody else outside of Maine, people want to know. They want to know, number one, where's their food come from? Right? They don't want it. They don't want it to be a secret. People are aware today of what food is made, of what's in it, what are the ingredients, what is it really? Where is it coming from? And they want to know that. So we've got the greatest story in the world with Maine lobster of where it comes from. It's a great story. And it not only sells Maine lobster, but it attracts people to Maine for the tourism business. Right? I mean, that's what the tourism business is based on. And people, you know, I sell. We sell into retail, some retail packages, and I always put my email address and my cell phone number on the back. And people think I'm crazy, but I learn a lot by doing that. And people call me from all over the country, and I just answered the phone. Like, I don't know who it is. I just answered the phone. And they think they got the wrong number because it's not some formal person answering the phone at a company. I say, no, just tell me. And they always tell me about their experience in Maine and how I Came to Maine when I was a kid. Oh, I was this, I was that. And they just love Maine. They love the story of Maine. They love eating Maine lobsters because it reminds of me, reminds them of Maine. And we just have the greatest brand in the world and we just need to fully utilize it, in my opinion. And that's why I didn't understand why we didn't have any certification for sustainability. Because the other thing people want to know is when they, particularly with seafood, they want to know they're not harming the fishery. Right. They're not like, who know, you know, how many fisheries there have been out there. That or no longer. Right. And people want to know that when they're voting with their money and they want to know, oh, tell me. So I said, why not put that little Good Housekeeping seal of approval on there that tells everybody in Texas or California or Florida someplace, oh, this is a sustainable product. These guys do it. Right. And so we finally. And the fishermen have been doing it right. So we finally got through that process and got the certification, which I think has made a significant difference in what the people's perception of Maine lobster is outside of the state of Maine. So those are just things that I think the industry needs to be doing to really. Because the landings are not going to keep going up and up and up, you know, and so we want to maximize the value and the economic sustainability of the fishery. And I don't think we do that by just shipping live lobster to China or wherever for, you know, pennies on the dollar. Right. I mean, just for small margins. But are you able to. That's me. I'm often a lone voice, so it

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

sounds like it seems worked out so far for you.

John Hathaway:

Yeah, but I, you know, as for industry wide, I would like to see us go in those, those directions.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Are you able to use more of the lobster than people traditionally are able to use? I know that if you have. Most people, if you have a lobster, they throw away the little feet things.

John Hathaway:

Yeah, the legs.

John Hathaway:

We use the legs for, for stuff. And we have, we have a couple products where we use it and we also sell it to chefs and people make value added products with it. And again, you know, it's. It's like, it's like what we have to. In my opinion, what we need to do is it's like the lobster roll. You take a few ounces of meat, but you add mayo or butter to it or something, you're increasing that weight. If you use it more as an ingredient, it'll go a lot further. Lobster Mac and cheese is huge now. Right. And if you do that, then you're putting a small amount of Maine lobster, but a lot of Mac and cheese. You're feeding a lot of people and they feel great because they are eating Maine lobster and it increases the value of that product. So those are good examples, I think, of, you know, where the industry should be headed. And again, we do that here in Maine and we create more jobs here in Maine.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You currently have 80 people working in Maine.

John Hathaway:

75 or 80 people, yep.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Which is a pretty good number for

John Hathaway:

a small business in Maine, I think it is. We have really terrific people and they work very hard. They start at 4:00 in the morning. And we used to start at 6 and they showed up at 5:30, and we started at 5 and they showed up at 4:30. So we said, okay, 4 o', clock, that's it. But they work very hard, and most of them have been with us for a few years now.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So what you're telling me is something different than what I often hear, which is that we, smaller businesses sometimes have difficulty finding people to work for them because there seem to be a lot more jobs out there than there once were. You're saying that you have people who want to work for you, they want to stay with you, and they want to get up at 4 o' clock in the morning to do it?

John Hathaway:

Yeah, I think so. I'd like to think that that's. There's a couple reasons for that. I'd like to think that we treat our people well and, you know, consider them to be members of the team, and we can't do it without them. There may be more jobs out there now, but I'll tell you honestly, my experience is that a lot of people don't want to work. I mean, you know, we've had a lot of people come into our building, you know, and they. They'll last two days or they don't really want a job. They want us to sign their papers saying they came to look for a job. But again, it kind of goes back for me. For me, I think you. I look at it in terms of opening doors for your life and, okay, do I really think I'm gonna get, you know, be really successful selling Kool Aid, you know, when I'm five years old? No. But hey, you know, I would make, you know, I'd go out into the blueberry fields and for a day, six o' clock in the morning, we'd come back in the afternoon, I'd make a dollar and fifty cents. Okay? But it's a job. I'm learning skills. I see other things, I meet other people. It opens another door. And you don't know what that door is at the end until it's like the Dollar House story. Okay? It was funny because when I was in law school, I realized that I'd go and study for exams. I'd be in the library studying, and I'd be reading these real estate books. Like, why? I don't know why, but I just was fascinated by it. And I didn't do anything. But then I got to the Dollar House and I said, oh, now it all makes sense, right? Like, for a dollar, I opened a door, okay? And then. I mean, it wasn't a great thing, but it was a start. And then I saw, oh, here's another door. I can do this. Oh, guess what? Somebody called me and told me about this. There's another door I can open. And pretty soon you got to get started. You're on a journey. You want to be happy. You want a happy journey. So to me, I've talked a lot in high schools to kids, and I tell them, look, take that first step. That's the most critical step, whatever your dream is. And I would tell my kids when they were growing up, like, look out the window in school, I want you to look out the window. I don't care what your teacher says. You look out the window for five or ten minutes every day and just dream. I don't care what it's about. Whoever you are, that's your dream. I don't care what the teacher says. And then you have to bring that to. Then have the courage to take that first step to what it is. You may get knocked down, but so what? I teach my kids, it's not about how many times you fall down. It's about how many times you get up. That's what it's about. You always want to get up one more time. Then you fall down and don't ever quit. And people. To get back to your question about people who work for us, those are people who don't quit. They're trying to open doors. And people. We have a woman who came to Portland with her family from Iraq as a refugee, and she wanted to work, couldn't find a job. Somebody brought her to us one day. She worked so hard. And then when the time came and we had a supervisor and that supervisor wasn't working out, I made her supervisor. And everybody said, you're Crazy. There's no way that she can do that. You know, I said she works harder than anybody else here. Her heart and soul is in the success of this. You watch. And Today she manages 25 people, and she does a tremendous job and just. And just works very hard. And, you know, and now she's got her citizenship. She wants to buy a house. She's bought her first car. She's, you know, she's done things for her, for her family. And, you know, for her, the dream was, we have to go. I have to take my family to Disneyland, the Statue of Liberty. And now she makes enough money where she can do that. And those are the people I want to surround myself with. And that's what I try to tell people. Young people, take that first step. You don't know what's going to happen. Find that passion, Go for it. You're not going to start at the top.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What's your next passion secret? So stay tuned.

John Hathaway:

I have. There's more I want to do, but I just, I mean, I've been very fortunate. You asked me about in the introduction. You just said that, you know, I had companies. I mean, not a big financier or something, big companies around the world. But I've been very fortunate. I mean, like I said, when I was in school, I met people and I thought, okay, you know, I can do this, right? And so I've been very lucky. And I was. I've met a lot of. Just along the way, a lot of very famous people and been very, very lucky. Just again, I found myself at the MTV Music Awards. I can't sing, believe me, because when I was a kid, they wouldn't let me sing Christmas carols when we went door to door. But we gave this. When I had the real estate company, we had this big. We used to have a big barbecue every year. And we invited mtv, and they actually came and put it on TV and the whole thing. And they invited me to the MTV Music Awards. And I'm backstage and I'm by the, I'm by the, you know, at the stage, behind the curtain. And Whitney Houston comes up to me and starts talking, and she's getting ready to win an award. So she says to me, grabs my hand, said, come on, come on up on stage with me. I'm like, you sure you want me up there? I don't, you know, I don't think so. But, I mean, you just find yourself in these situations. And I was very fortunate to meet George Bush 41 when he was vice president and, and Afterwards, he was very good to us, and he would actually invited my wife and I and him for dinner at the White House, just us, the three of us. And Barbara was always just the most gracious person in the world. And, you know, he would tour us around the White House and do things. And he sent. Those are just things that happen if you're out there, you know, chasing your dream. And he sent me. I mean, they offered me an ambassadorship, which I had very young kids. I didn't. I couldn't do at the time, which was fine. But I went to. He sent me on a mission before the. Before the Iron Curtain came down. He sent me on a mission to Russia with some young business people, and we got to meet Gorbachev in his office and introduced the Politburo and traveled across Russia to St. Petersburg and into Latvia. And the most chilling days of my life, I think, really. And seeing the people and just how sad it all was. And. And I'll never forget a night we went in, a Friday night, we went into this church in December, and it was just freezing and there was no heat, just candles in this big church in Latvia, and it was just quiet, and everybody was just huddled in there, and I'm like, okay. And all of a sudden, in the background, up in the. In the choir, this lady just comes out singing Ave Maria. And it was just. I mean, it was just. Bring tears to your eyes to see these people. Like, wow, is this all. You know, is this all you have to live for? It's just a shame. And I was actually there when the Wall came down and President Bush was with President Gorbachev in Malta, and it was incredible. And so I met some good contacts there and started a business, one of the first private businesses in Russia, and then started one in the Philippines. And again, it's just opening doors, you know, you don't know what's out there. There's. Life is full of adventures. Just take advantage of it and participate. That's kind of how I've. How I've, you know, lived my life and very happy with it and lucky, very fortunate.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I appreciate your taking time out of your busy schedule.

John Hathaway:

Five wonderful kids that I think have listened a little bit, and they're all doing very, very well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I wish you all the best for your ongoing success and for your kids and for your wife. And I appreciate all the work that you've done to bring, I guess, sustainability to the workplace and to the lobster industry here in the state of Maine. I've been speaking with John Hathaway, who has owned companies all over the world, including a successful real estate development firm. He returned to his home state of Maine to open Chuck's Main Lobster, a business that supplies raw lobster meat to international and local chefs. Thank you for coming in today.

John Hathaway:

Thank you, Lisa. I enjoyed it.