Mothers Day #35

Dr. Ann Skelton:

The most important is just being there. It's clearly different for everyone, but standing by and accepting and validating, I think those are some of the most important things.

Allison Gray:

I think everyone's so individual that you find what works for you and educating yourself on what's out there, educating yourself on what kind of provider might be a good match for you is huge.

Emily Murray:

And reducing fear. Fear is the switch that turns labor off.

Sarah Plimpton:

So I had a C section, went from wanting zero intervention to having a nice little scar on my belly. But in the moment I really felt like I had done everything I could to protect, you know, what I wanted. I think I was flexible along the way. You can plan for all this stuff and it just doesn't matter. It's going to be what it's going to be.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So thank you for joining me yet again, my fellow mother.

Genevieve Morgan:

Happy Mother's Day. Lisa, I know you're a tremendous mother.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, thank you. And I know that you are too. I think part of being a tremendous mother is caring a lot, even when it hurts to care, even when it's overwhelming. And yes, in fact it is. The mothering piece is really interesting because it does translate into not just caring for your children, but also caring for everything around them and everybody around you. And it's all really great and sometimes it has its difficulties and you know, being a mother is interesting.

Genevieve Morgan:

I think one thing that we talk a lot about is mothering energy that everybody, male, female, and certainly all women have this. This creative mothering energy that can manifest itself in many different ways.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I agree. And we've brought in today for guests Dr. Ann Skelton, who's the chief of family medicine at Maine Medical center. She happened to deliver my second baby, Abigail Ann. She was my program director when I was going through the family medicine department. So she knows all about mothering energy, as do Allison Gray and Emily Murray, one of whom, actually, both of whom are sisters, which I think is the. This great thing. I used to babysit for them when they lived in Yarmouth. One of them is now a labor and delivery nurse up in Lewiston. The other one is the founder of Birth Roots here in Portland. And we also have Sarah Plimpton, who is a dear friend of mine and a new mom of not too long, but long enough to have this great, movable, adorable baby that I get to see pictures of all the time, all talking about mothering energy and mothering and what it's like to. How transformative it is to go through the birthing process.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, interestingly, one of our former guests, the author and chaplain Kate Braestrup, I was reading one of her books a couple weeks ago, and in fact, the Origin of Mother's Day, it started in the Unitarian Universalist Church, and it was actually supposed to be a day of universal peace when all mankind laid down their arms so that no mother on the planet for one day would worry about her child being killed in battle. I found that so interesting. And I think you and I both wish all the mothers and mothering types out there fortitude and solace in their pursuits as mothers, because we know from firsthand experience that it's the most important job you'll ever have.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. Fortitude and solace and maybe even a little bit of joy. I was at a car the other day. I got my haircut. I got myself all spiffied up, and I'm like, I'm a new mom. This is, you know, all the new, good, joyful stuff that you can do alone.

Genevieve Morgan:

Do something great for yourself.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes. Use that fortitude on the one hand to keep your family going, but on the other hand, get yourself out there and experience the fun of being alive. So happy Mother's Day, everybody. Happy Mother's Day to my mom and happy Mother's Day. Thank you for listening. The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast features a segment called Wellness so sponsored by the University of New England

Genevieve Morgan:

in

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

this week's Wellness Innovation research shows that 50 years of motherhood manuals set standards too high for new moms New research at the University of Warwick into 50 years of motherhood manuals reveals how, despite their differences, they have always issued advice as orders and set unattainably high standards for new moms and babies. Angela Davis, from the Department of History at the University of Warwick, carried out 160 interviews with women of all ages and from all backgrounds to explore their experiences of motherhood for her new book, Modern Women and family in England, 1945-2000. Dr. Davis found although the advice from experts changed over the decades, the one thing that didn't was the way it was delivered as an order, which left many of the women interviewed by Davis feeling confused and disillusioned. For more information on this Wellness Innovation, visit DoctorLisa.org for more information on the University of New England, visit une.edu

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

In the studio with us Today, we have Dr. Ann Skelton, who is the chief of family medicine at the Maine Medical center, which is now affiliated with Maine Health. And she also happens to have been my program director when I was going through the family medicine department. So we have that personal connection. Ann she delivered my middle child, Ms. Abigail Marie. That would be 16 years ago this past January. So I know Ann on a lot of different levels. And we were thinking about our motherhood show and we said, who can we get to come in and talk about mothering from a more professional standpoint? And I thought it was appropriate. We had you and Ann, so thanks for coming in.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And the thing that I'm interested in most is why do you keep doing this? I mean, motherhood is. It's amazing. It's wonderful. Delivering babies is amazing. It's wonderful. It's kind of a lot of work. You get up in the middle of the night, you are on call, you're on call today, you're on call now. But there's something about delivering babies that's kept you kind of coming back.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes, I love it. I think one of the most important times to be a doctor is at the most vulnerable times in people's lives. So in that I would put death and birth, obviously there are lots of Vulnerable times in between. But it's really important to me to be with my patients as they're facing those major changes in their lives and in their family's lives.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you've been a family doctor for how long?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

For 22 years.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So you've had the chance now to experience both ends of that spectrum multiple times over?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes, I have.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And. And you're still practicing here in Portland?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

I am.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So tell me what it have you had the experience yet of delivering the baby of somebody that you delivered or the next generation in?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

The closest I've gotten is that some of the girls that I met when they were, say, 6 years old have had babies now. So I haven't delivered grandchildren, but I've come close.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And what is it like to have followed a family that entire amount of time?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

That is amazing. I mean, seeing the mother of the woman who's going to have a baby come in, knowing her when she was in her 20s or 30s, and now she is coaching her daughter through birth, I mean, it's really kind of, you see the whole continuum very satisfying.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And this, I assume, is one of the reasons you chose family medicine in the first place.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

It is, yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Anne, talk to me about the family aspect of family medicine. Why is family medicine so important in this state and age?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Well, I think we learn different things about our patients by knowing their entire family. And certainly that's the case for, you know, the child whom I deliver and have known really since preconception, and then take care of in their youth, adolescence, et cetera. But I think it also pertains to families that we don't deliver. So just a little bit more understanding of the systems, the stresses, the situation that people are in when we know their entire family. And it's really a joy to have the first family member perhaps come to you as a doctor and then have that person bring a spouse and two children eventually. So sometimes it happens by birth, sometimes it just happens because the whole family migrates toward a specific physician. But it's a little bit different, I think, than other disciplines where we don't get that. That window.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What's it like to practice. To deliver babies and practice family medicine at the medical center, which of course is a tertiary care hospital. It offers very high level care for people all over the state of Maine. But you're doing something that is basic and yet important.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What's that like?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Well, when patients ask me about choices of places to deliver, when what I tell them is what's really important is who is in the four walls with you who is in that room and at the medical center, you know that there's a lot going outside, going on outside that room that's very high tech and you know, could handle pretty much any emergency that came up. But what's really important is your nurse, the people that you bring to the delivery with you, and the physician or midwife who is doing the delivery. So that team of people within those within your own room I think is the most important aspect of what it's like to deliver there from a patient standpoint.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So if you are a pregnant woman listening to the show right now, what types of things could you offer as suggestions for how to populate those four walls?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Pretty clearly only invite to be present the people who you think will really support you. Not your mother because you think you should, or you know, your mother in law because you think you should, or a friend because she's never seen a birth before and she wants to be there. Really think about who the people are who are the most helpful to you because it's going to be tough.

Genevieve Morgan:

You do become a mother at the birth of your child. But mothering, becoming a healthy mother actually starts much earlier. So taking care of your patients even before they're even thinking of pregnancy is probably something that you think about.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes. And you know, we think about kind of technically the pre conceptual care, but the bottom line is helping all of our patients be as healthy as they can for whatever will come up in their lives is important.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

When you, you grew up in Maine.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

I did.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And when you were growing up, I think you got an English degree initially.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Philosophy.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Okay, philosophy. All right. But you didn't necessarily know that you were going to be a do right away.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

No, I didn't.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So what caused you to go in this direction?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Well, I think it was really when I went to college, I was focused on getting a liberal arts education for the sake of education. I mean, it sounds pretty. When you're thinking about college these days and costs and debts and so on, that may sound pretty indulgent, but I did it that way and I'm really glad that I did. That left me out of all of those really competitive pre med classes. I went back and did the pre med stuff and what really led me there was losses in my own life and the desire to do something that I knew pretty much every day. You can be of service in a positive way.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Do you feel like that has enabled you to deal with the losses in other people's lives more effectively as well?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes, I think so. I think one of the hardest things about losses is just first times not knowing how you will come out on the other end. And having been there a few times, I think I can reassure people that, yes, you do get through it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And I know that it can be particularly painful. And this is, of course, a Mother's Day show. So it's hard, but it can be particularly painful to go towards what you think is a positive outcome, a baby being born and have a loss, whether it's early or late or even once the baby is born. Have you been in situations like that?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

I have. I mean, miscarriage is probably one of the most under recognized losses in our society. There's just no way to acknowledge it. There's a lot of loss there, and then unexpected outcomes such as a baby going to the neonatal intensive care unit, et cetera, Those are difficult. And stillbirth is very, very difficult, too.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how do you, as a doctor, support your patients when they're going through these losses?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Probably the most important to me is just being there. You know, it's clearly different for everyone. But standing by and accepting and validating, I think those are some of the most important things.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And along with loss, we're talking about loss, but there's always. There tends to be a gain of some sort. And mothering, you gain a baby, but you also somewhat lose a bit of yourself. And so it's an interesting back and forth. It's a positive. Well, it's all good. Eventually you experience this with your patients as they give birth. What do you notice about people as they're going through this transformational mothering process?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

What I think I notice in terms of the transformation is really the focus of energy tends to be, you know, move from couple to family. And that's, you know, that's a really difficult thing, I think, for people to negotiate.

Genevieve Morgan:

Have you seen it change over the past 22 years with women having babies later and being more involved in the workforce?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

And, you know, men also taking much more often an active role in doing a good deal of childcare. So, you know, a Fair minority of families where the father or the other partner will stay home as well, or they'll work their schedules so that both are. So that hardly any childcare is needed.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Do you find it's difficult for new mothers to, I don't know, sequester their energy to try to do things for themselves as opposed to always doing things for other people?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Oh, yes, I see that quite a bit.

Genevieve Morgan:

I think that's part of being female, too.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Could be.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And so what types of things do you suggest?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Well, I think just putting it out there and naming it, you know, having time for yourself. And that doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be an afternoon a week. It might be five minutes a day or whatever it is. But just, you know, holding on to some part of, you know, you without children, you without partner, I think is very important to nourishing your own energy.

Genevieve Morgan:

So maybe instead of a Mother's Day, we should have a Mother's Minute or something every day.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

I think that's a good idea.

Genevieve Morgan:

You spoke of being present and available to someone at a terrible moment and how meaningful that's become to you. Was there a situation or a person in your life where that became clear to you? A specific instance where you understood that to be meaningful? How did that come about?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

I think I witnessed it, really. I had a wonderful mentor in Richard Rockefeller, who certainly displayed that in many ways. I also think about that just standing by as really the root of obstetrics. And, you know, so it's. You're asking, really about at times of loss. But I think that standing by is really important through the delivery process, too.

Genevieve Morgan:

That vulnerability piece, when people are at their most vulnerable.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes. And the fact that you're actually doing something by just being there. You may not have to be touching, coaching, talking, but just being there is important.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I remember with my Abby, it was very helpful to have you there. And I remember you brought your knitting along.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

That's right. I was just actually thinking of that and laughing to myself because I have had people tell me later that they were really, really angry at me because I was sitting comfortably in the room knitting, and they were going through, you know what.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, it's a little hard to have it both ways. If you want somebody there, then, you know, what are they supposed to do? Entertain themselves? I don't know, but I found it helpful. So I'm glad that, you know, if this doesn't work for everybody, then, yeah, that's okay.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, it is a confusing process when you're pregnant. You Hear that? It's this natural process. And in the old days, people used to go, just give birth in the fields. And there's this sense of like, well, you should be able to do this. You know, you should just. Your body should just take over. But as we know that that often doesn't take place, and you do need intervention. So it must be interesting to be there and know when to intervene and when to step back.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes. And I really. I have learned a lot from my nurse colleagues about how to judge that with patients and when to suggest and when to not suggest. They've been very, very good teachers in that way.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I think that you bring up a really good point and one that we talk about with other guests on this show, and that is that it ends up being more of a team approach. It's not always mom, although sometimes it's mom and baby. But oftentimes it is a room full of people. It is the four walls that you've described. Do you think that with the advent of technology, there's been some distancing between doctor and patient? When I was in residency, we all would sit, not me, all the time. But, you know, there was a temptation to sit and watch the monitor, watch the contractions from the nurses station. You know, when something exciting happened, then we all go in and talk to me about that a little bit.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

That still happens. And, you know, I think that we're constantly vigilant about not using the technology to supplant being with the patient, because when you can do it from outside the room, sometimes that does seem a little bit easier. But being in the room is so important. There are ways that we've reduced the use of technology, too. So, for example, the electronic monitors used to be used fairly continuously. Now we do more off and on listening or intermittent auscultation.

Genevieve Morgan:

I was wondering about the cesarean birth, because a lot of people feel disappointed when they have a cesarean birth.

Sarah Plimpton:

Yes.

Genevieve Morgan:

And now the data goes back and forth between whether, if you've had one cesarean birth, whether you can give a vaginal birth after that. What is the newest take on that?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

I think that it's still really an informed decision between the mother and her doctor, because there are pros and cons for each way. Clearly, the recovery is usually a little bit quicker and easier after vaginal birth, but the planned cesarean has a little bit lower risk of some things that, you know, although extremely infrequent, are at times catastrophic.

Genevieve Morgan:

And can you have a vaginal birth after you've had a Cesarean?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Do you have any tips for patients who might be listening? Pregnant women or their significant other spouses, people who might be helping them for communicating with their labor and delivery team?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

You know, I think being clear up front about what you want, knowing that things may change, and for most people, writing it down someplace is helpful. And I think everybody has probably seen online or used birth plans, which really get at the key elements in the things that might happen during the course of labor and delivery. Those can be really good as guides. But I think that others will talk or have talked about how you really need to be prepared to change expectations on the fly in this area.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And does some of this communication, is it impacted by the care provider that you choose?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Absolutely. So one of the things that you'll be checking out as you go through the initial parts of pregnancy and those early visits are, is this person, someone who's listening to you, communicating with you? Do you feel comfortable bringing up your questions, that kind of thing? Now, in most groups, you won't necessarily be delivered by the person who provides most of the prenatal care, but you should be able to get a pretty good sense for the openness and respect that people in that group show to their patients.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How many babies have you delivered? Do you know?

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Oh, I stopped keeping count a long time ago. I think I probably told you, Lisa, that I used to, just because babies often come at times when you might have been doing other things. I used to track the numbers so that I would take my husband out to dinner for every baby that I delivered. Well, the count got. I was so far behind that I knew I would never catch up. And I at that point just said, okay, dinner is always on me. So if we say maybe 20 a year for 22 years, then I guess that's 440.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, that's a lot of babies. And probably there are more.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Yes, there could be more. And I love seeing them around town at sporting events. It's just. It's really kind of cool to say I delivered that young man or woman or child.

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, Ann, I just want to say happy Mother's Day to your mother. And I don't know if your grandmother is still here, but we are very lucky in the state of Maine that your mother gave birth to you. So happy Mother's Day to your mother.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Well, thank you. I'm sure she appreciates that, and my grandmother does, too.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, we appreciate your helping bring so much life into Maine, into this part of Maine, and also for the work that you do at the family practice. Department at the Maine Medical center and continuing to focus on the importance of family and relationships as seated in a high tech situation. So thank you for coming in and joining us today.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

Ian, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

On today's Dr. Lisa Radio RM podcast we have a special Mother's Day show which is just replete with mothers of various sorts, but also people who are helping mothers. These individuals in studio with us and with Genevieve Morgan, my co host are Allison Gray, who is a labor and delivery nurse at St. Mary's Hospital and mother of three three and Emily Murray, who's the co founder of our Birth Roots here in Portland and mother of one one. And I must say I was surprised because I realized after we agreed to have you on the air that I used to babysit for you a while ago. So it's very funny to see you here and all grown up. And you're actually a testament to the idea that we do really listen to what people who are interested in the radio hour and podcast have to say. Because this was your idea, Alison, to have this show about, well, we called it Perinatal Care, but we're really talking about helping women through the birth process and their experience. And it was such a great idea. We said, sure, come on up and let's talk. So you're so interesting in that you are a labor and delivery nurse at St. Mary's which is in Lewiston, but you have three very distinct birth experiences yourself.

Allison Gray:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So tell me about that.

Allison Gray:

My first daughter was born, I was pretty young and I really was always kind of drawn to the kind of more natural birth options, but ended up having her at Mercy Hospital in Portland. I had a midwife who was at Women to Women at the time. She doesn't do OB stuff anymore, but she was amazing and she really kind of and she really helped kind of foster this passion for helping pregnant women. So I had a really great experience at Mercy. It was about as wonderful as you could get, especially for a younger mom. I think sometimes there's stigmas there and the nurses there were amazing, as they usually are, and I had a great experience and Then My oldest daughter's 15 and then so my next daughter is seven. So they were about seven years apart. And I chose the home birth route and it had always been of interest and I think being a little bit older, maybe a little bit more confident in that process, having been through it once before and had a pretty smooth transition. Also had a lot of wonderful family support, which would, you know, would probably make or break that situation for anyone. But I had a home birth with my middle daughter that went beautifully as well. And so it was just natural to have it for my third child, who was very, very fast. And I really think I would have ended up having a home birth even if I had planned a hospital birth with him. It was crazy. So I feel blessed in a way to be able to have those different perspectives in the hospital. I work with women who have very different goals for, for their birth scenario. And so for people who are kind of hoping for the less interventive scenario, I feel like I come at it with a different vision maybe of how that can happen because I've seen the very kind of the other side of the pendulum, I guess.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And how old were you when you had your first child?

Allison Gray:

I was 17 when Delia was born.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So that is, that's really young. That's like scary young.

Allison Gray:

Yeah, that's surprise young.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, right, I understand. But I feel like the, the care

Emily Murray:

that Alison received through her midwife was so respectful.

Allison Gray:

Yeah.

Emily Murray:

And really put her in the driver's seat of her care. And I feel like that level of honoring this young woman as a mother really set the tone for being a confident parent.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Absolutely. Well, when I say scary young, I mean, just, there's probably a lot of fear associated with being 17 and having a child. I'm not even thinking about the stigma associated with being 17 and having a child.

Allison Gray:

You know, it is really strange. And this is not at all any kind of like pro young baby thing at all, but it's almost. And I think this has to do with the birth process too, because I see this with teenagers who deliver at the hospital. You haven't had the years of hearing these horrible birth stories and seeing birth story on tv. I mean, it's not on your radar at that age. And so you go into this process for me personally, just kind of thinking, oh, well, that's just how it is. There wasn't, I don't think there was as much hang up of fear. Of course, the day to day stuff, I mean, you know, like teenagers brains are just wired differently. I don't Even think you have the same worries. You just kind of think, oh, it'll work out. Which probably isn't good always. But I do think that there's something about the more time goes on, I think sometimes that the fear builds a little more. If you haven't gone through that birth experience and you've had more time to maybe hear some of the other kind of, I don't know, horror stories that

Emily Murray:

people love to tell or fantasy realities.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, and that's where I wanted to bring you in and talk about this, Emily. Our birth roots. Tell us what that is.

Emily Murray:

So Birth Roots was founded in 2004 by myself and Leah Daragon. And we originally founded Birth Roots with the intention of just shining a light on and making more accessible all of the non clinical support options. And while that's still true, that's still a large focus of what we do, kind of showing families the whole spectrum of what's available to them. We have kind of grown into being a container for this experience of becoming a parent. So we work with families from early in pregnancy all the way through the first year of parenting, just kind of holding a space for them, doing what we call building their parenting muscle. Just like the experience that Allison had, which completely inspired me into getting into this work. Having that experience of someone saying, well, what do you think? What do you need to know in order to make a decision? And really having that be an authentic decision coming from the family, influenced by all of that support network around them, from their doctor or their midwife to their family, their friends, what they read, so they can make decisions from a place of feeling really confident in what they're doing.

Genevieve Morgan:

Nature gives us nine months to prepare in this way with our birth roots and as a family, or whether you're with your parents or with your spouse or whoever it is to prepare for becoming parents. But there's probably nothing in human experience that is as immediate as that moment when your baby arrives. You go from one personhood to another and it's. I don't know what it would be for men. Maybe it's war, I don't know. But for women, I think it's childbirth. What is it like being there over and over again with women going through this moment, Alison,

Allison Gray:

I mean, it's humbling. I feel like the moment I stop bringing that with me in my work, that probably that's the time that I should not be doing it anymore. Because I think you see so many, you know, there are definitely people who are burnt out or, you know, maybe need to step away. But I just, I always feel humbled by that experience. And every person's journey is so different and just trying to meet them where they're at. You know, the community I work in has a lot of needs and many aspects and regardless of all of the different needs that go on, it is just always this amazing transformative experience. And you know, I just see it as my job to really try to support that as much as possible. But yeah, there's just nothing to describe it.

Emily Murray:

It's

Allison Gray:

awesome.

Emily Murray:

Yeah, it's amazing in the truest sense.

Allison Gray:

Truly amazing.

Genevieve Morgan:

for expectant moms out there, there are many different non clinical services. Hypnosis, water birth, lots of different techniques. Do you guys have any opinion on for people listening out there, what have you seen that's worked?

Emily Murray:

It's so individual. I think knowing that all of those options are there and helping a woman decide for herself. Some people just click beautifully with hypnosis and use it effectively in childbirth to stay really relaxed and others need a lot more active, a lot more of an active approach. So one of the things that happens in our classes is we talk about all those approaches and practice a little bit from each of them. So a woman has a real sense of yeah, that one didn't work as well or this one clicked more for me. So it's more about knowing that there's this whole menu available and being able to practice ahead of time, but then also have a plan B for what? If that doesn't work, then there's another resource available to turn to.

Allison Gray:

And we know statistically speaking that doulas greatly reduce the amount of intervention and C sections that a person might encounter throughout their process. So that is one thing. And so sometimes people look at the cost and think, oh, I can't afford that. But Birthroots actually does a doula training and people need to do volunteer births to get their certification. So there's always ways. That's just an added layer of someone telling you you can do this and giving you resources of understanding how to go through it. So I think doula. Connecting with a doula is a really beneficial thing, regardless of if you're just going to go in for a plan C section. I mean, they do everything, but also turning off Baby Story. And I think good childbirth ed classes that help. I'm a huge fan of prenatal yoga. I'm a big yoga fan myself. But there's something about working through the poses mentally. Kind of reminds me of how you work through. Through contractions mentally. So I always try to put that plug in. But like Em said, I think everyone's so individual that you find what works for you. And educating yourself on what's out there, educating yourself on what kind of provider might be a good match for you is huge.

Emily Murray:

And reducing fear. Fear is the switch that turns labor off. So the less fear there is, the more that switch can be in its most effective position.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What is the biggest thing that you've learned through your own labor? Delivery, childbirth, mothering. Each of you as individuals, what has been the most transformative thing for you?

Emily Murray:

I think experiencing birth. For me, toward the end of my labor, my blood pressure was not where it needed to be, and we had to induce two weeks before my daughter's due date. And that was a long process that ended in a cesarean birth. And so for someone from my background teaching childbirth education, being a doula,

Allison Gray:

I

Emily Murray:

had always known and said, whatever works for you. You have to make decisions in the moment based on the information you have, but really making it through that process. We talk at Birth Roots about the difference between a trauma and an ordeal. And that experience could have been traumatic. That experience could have been. Could have felt like I was no part of it. Could have felt like it was the end of the world because it wasn't the birth I wanted. But it was so perfect every step of the way with the support that I had around me with my midwife and the doctor that was backing her up, really explaining things to me as we went so I could make really clear decisions every step of the way, that, yes, that was the right decision at that time. So I merged with my parenting muscle intact, feeling like I was more prepared. And it was very clear to me on a very internal level at that point that it really matters more that a woman feels like she was a full participant in that process.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How can people find out more about Birth Roots?

Emily Murray:

We have a website, ourbirthroots.org but our Facebook page is. Is a very dynamic page. We have lots of friends, and Leah, my partner at birthroots, really posts amazing things she scours the Internet for amazing stories and resources and articles that support growth of the parenting muscle. We also firmly believe in pluralism in the perinatal world, which means that we can actually coexist as mothers with differing opinions and still like each other and respect each other. So she holds that bar really high on our Facebook page for discussions to happen. So Facebook and our website are and of course, our resource guide that we publish each year with as many local perinatal resources as we can find. There's an online copy on our website and another one coming out in in May, end of May.

Allison Gray:

And there's resources on there that, I mean, even if you're not pregnant or newly a mom, that would be beneficial. Definitely.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We've been speaking with Allison Gray, mother of three and labor and delivery nurse at St. Mary's Hospital in Lewiston, sister to Emily Murray, co founder of Birth Roots and mother of one. We appreciate your coming in and taking the time to speak with us. I must say, as your past babysitter from many moons ago, I'm thrilled to see how much good you're doing in the world. And I know that all the young mothers out there that you're impacting feel the same way.

Allison Gray:

Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

in the studio with us today, we have Sarah Plimpton. And I knew I know her both personally and professionally. What we thought might be interesting is to have her come in and talk about her experiences as a new mother. Genevieve Morgan and I, of course, we're sort of old timey moms. You know, I got an 18 year old, I got a 16 year old, I got an 11 year old. Genevieve's got.

Genevieve Morgan:

It seems like a long time ago that they were infants.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yes. But you have a, you have a little one seven and a half months. Yes. Teething and teething. What's she doing these days?

Sarah Plimpton:

She just started sleeping through the night.

Genevieve Morgan:

Hallelujah.

Sarah Plimpton:

Yes, indeed. She's almost crawling. Working really hard on that. She started babbling a couple maybe a month or so ago. She started saying baa ba Ba ba and ma ma ma ma ma. So that's pretty exciting.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. And these are all things, all these things that you're bringing up are things that when you're going through them, these milestones, they seem enormous. They get written on the baby calendar and the baby book. You know, they, you know, you talk about them, you post. I mean, I remember all of this so vividly, even though it was a long time ago. What other milestones have you seen in your own life as a mother? Because a lot of things have changed for you in the last, well, seven plus nine months.

Sarah Plimpton:

Right. I don't know about milestones, but I think a lot of things have changed. Certainly I have a lot less time for myself, which is something, Lisa, that you and I have always talked a lot about is carving out time in your life for yourself and really fighting to keep that time. And that's been a really big struggle for me. I'm not exercising as much as I used to, you know, I just don't have, I don't have the time and I really don't even have the energy. So that's been a really big change over the past several months. But I'm, you know, again, we've also talked a lot about sort of going easy on yourself and not, you know, beating yourself up to a pulp when you can't achieve really, really high expectations that you've set your set for yourself. So I've also sort of tried to think about the fact that this is a stage, you know, I will, you know, not be breastfeeding forever and that will free me up considerably. And, you know, she will get older and be less dependent and all that kind of stuff. But it's hard. I mean, there are definitely days where I'm like, I just want to go for a run and I can't. Or I just want an hour to do this project or just be by myself. And, you know, you can't necessarily do that when you have a baby.

Genevieve Morgan:

I remember when my firstborn was about your baby's age, someone said to me that the days are long but the years are short. And I remember now that I'm in the position where I am now with a 15 year old and a 12 year old. I really feel that because I remember those days with a newborn and they were endless.

Sarah Plimpton:

Endless.

Genevieve Morgan:

It's a good thing. Nature makes them so magical. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Plimpton:

It is hard. I mean, the days can be very long. But I've recently sort of realized she's closer to being a year than zero and that is just blowing my mind. And so I feel like even in the moment, I'm able to see that the years really are going to just start going very quickly.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You talked about managing expectations. Now I happen to have had sort of a front row seat to your expectations of your labor and delivery. Are you willing to tell us a little bit about how what you expected differed from what happened?

Allison Gray:

Sure.

Sarah Plimpton:

I'm always happy to talk about my birth story. So I went into it very much wanting to have a natural, unmedicated delivery. I knew that that was going to entail a fair bit of education on my part and planning as well, on my part. So my husband and I took a class in the Bradley Method last summer. It was due last September. So June, July, and August. We spent every Saturday morning learning about natural childbirth, which was, in retrospect, kind of insane that we gave up every Saturday morning for an entire summer. But that's how dedicated and committed we were to the process of an unmedicated birth. So September came. We'd done this class. We did all kinds of preparatory exercises and all kinds of. Of stuff to get ready for this. And I had this nice little birth plan, and Lisa was going to come and be with me in the hospital and sort of help me, you know, get through it and all that kind of stuff. And so my due date comes, and I didn't go into labor, which is fine. A week goes by and I'm still not in labor. So I think it was six days. No. Yeah, it was six days after my due date, so not a full week had gone by. My water broke on a Friday night, and I thought, great, this is it.

Dr. Ann Skelton:

It's going to happen.

Sarah Plimpton:

I just have to wait for it to happen. And so I went to bed, and I woke up the next morning, and I wasn't in labor. So I went into the hospital, and the doctors were very accommodating and great about honoring my desired outcome of not wanting to be induced, really wanting to give my body the time to go into labor on its own. So a very long story short, they sent me home Saturday and said, you know, go walk around. Go eat spicy food. If you don't go into labor on your own by tomorrow morning, Sunday morning, come back and we'll check you and we'll reassess what's going to happen and what's going on. So I did all those things. Sunday morning came, I was still not in labor. It was very stressful day, as you can imagine. There were a lot of decisions about, do I get Induced. Now do I continue to wait? What are the risks? What are the benefits?

Genevieve Morgan:

Well, because we should say that once the water breaks, the baby is at a higher risk.

Sarah Plimpton:

Exactly. And I was really sort of operating under the assumption that I think it's more than 90% of women when their water breaks and they're not in labor, they do go into labor on their own fairly soon thereafter. So on Sunday, it was a very. It was a very, very tense, stressful day. They ultimately let me leave again. In retrospect, I'm not sure that I would have left again if I could go back and do it over again. But I did with the same understanding that if by Monday morning I was not in labor, I was going to come back in and have them check me again. So Monday morning came and I was not in labor. So I'd now gone more than two days with my membranes ruptured, not in labor. So they did an ultrasound. They said, you know, she's the baby. Well, I didn't know the sex at the time, but they said the baby's fine, but she's moving a little bit less than we'd like to see. There's not a lot of fluid in there. We've given this a lot of time. We think you need to induce. And so I said, okay. You know, as soon as the doctor said, here's our professional opinion, they'd been so accommodating up to that point, I thought, okay, I'm gonna go with this. So they induced me on Monday. And the long and short of it is that even after an induction, I still didn't go into labor really, which was kind of amazing and crazy.

Genevieve Morgan:

Does that happen often, Lisa?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Oh, it certainly can, yes. These are the best laid plans that, yes, you can definitely end up having. Not the outcome you expected, not the outcome you wanted.

Sarah Plimpton:

So then the induction occurred at about two o' clock on Monday afternoon. It was a 12 hour induction course at about one. Well, probably a little bit later than that, maybe two or three in the morning. Tuesday morning, I started to get a really bad headache. I got really, really cold chills and I got a fever. And I knew immediately when I started to feel like that, that it was over, that I was gonna end up having a C section. I just knew it. So the doctor came in, they did all the temperature and, you know, all that kind of stuff, and they conferred and said, yes, you know, you're nowhere near delivering this baby. You developing a fever is a sign of potential infection in your body. It could impact the baby Game over. So I had a C section. Went from wanting zero intervention to having a nice little scar on my belly. But in the moment, I really felt like I had done everything I could to protect, you know, what I wanted. I think I was flexible along the way. I think it was a really good lesson for me in terms of becoming a parent, that you can plan for all this stuff and it just doesn't matter. It's going to be what it's going to be.

Genevieve Morgan:

She came out healthy and pink.

Sarah Plimpton:

She did. She came out screaming with, I think, almost perfect Apgar scores, which was a huge relief. We did have to stay in the hospital for a week because there were signs of infection in her system. So she needed to be on a course of antibiotics for a week, which I don't think, in retrospect, I fully understood what that would mean. And I feel. I do look back on it and think I should have been induced sooner. I was holding onto an ideal for a little bit too long, and I should have just said, okay, induce me on Saturday night or Sunday morning or something, because that is a long time

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

to have your membranes ruptured and be out and about. And it's actually. It's to the credit of the people that you are working with, your doctor and the nursing team, that they allowed you to do that and allowed you to really try to move forward with the plan that you had put in place. But it's still a long time. And so, you know, I think it does speak to sort of the vagaries of birth, that things just. They happen, and you end up needing to make decisions that you can always Monday morning quarterback them, but they are what they are. But I was really impressed when I. Because I was sort of. You and I were communicating back and forth this entire time because I was going to be willing to come in and be part of the birth. And when you went to C section, I mean, you really. You kept a very balanced view of all this all the way along. And I knew that you had gone through an enormous amount of time and effort and thought. And you and I talked about a lot of different things regarding the baby and the birth and what was going to happen. And so I knew that this could be extremely disappointing to you, and it could have just been devastating. But instead, you know, you just. You did what you needed to do, and the baby was beautiful. I mean, the outcome was exactly what you wanted, no matter what.

Genevieve Morgan:

And it is a life lesson.

Sarah Plimpton:

It's totally a life lesson. Yeah.

Genevieve Morgan:

Because I think all of motherhood Is like that you have the best intentions and the best laid plants and then you know what, your kid just wants to go and do something else.

Sarah Plimpton:

Yep, yep. And I think the other piece of becoming a parent that that experience sort of foreshadowed was just that there's no plan for how to do this. There's no instruction book. There's no, I mean you can go get all the advice in the world from the quote unquote experts, but they all contradict each other. It all changes every five years. It's really just your gut and your intuition and your instincts, which is. I think there are very few other jobs out there where there isn't more sort of training or professional development available to you. It's kind of fly by the seat of your pants and ask the people around you who've been through it for their advice and just make the best decision that you can make.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And that's hard. It is hard, but it's also rewarding. So what if some of the high points of your last, I guess, 16 months been pregnant, labor, delivery, birth, seven plus month old now?

Sarah Plimpton:

Well, she, I mean, she's my proudest achievement or I don't know that I would call her an achievement, but she's the love of my life. And I'm gonna start crying. But I think proud moments have been when we have sort of figured things out ourselves and not, you know, maybe we've gotten solicited advice from a number of different people and sort of been like, eh, that doesn't really feel like the right thing for us to do. And we've maybe tried it and confirmed that it wasn't the right thing and then done something else and realized that wasn't the right thing either and then tried something else and finally hit on. Okay, this is the right approach for this baby right now. And that has been pretty rewarding at those moments when we've figured it out on our own.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, we've been talking about, we brought in the show with this idea of mothering energy. You sort of personify mothering energy sitting across the way from us. Congratulations on your. Thank you. Newish baby who of course, now I need to see her. Okay. You've sent me pictures, Sarah, but that's, you know, I'm getting. I need to see this child and I have this like baby thing. I have to hold her too.

Sarah Plimpton:

So she will let you hold her.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. Last time I saw her, she was beautiful. So congratulations on that and we wish you all the best on your journey moving forward with her as Genevieve can attest it is an amazing journey. Not always easy, but amazing. So happy Mother's Day to you and thanks for coming in.

Sarah Plimpton:

Thank you and Happy Mother's Day to both of you as well.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle. We hope that you have enjoyed listening to the various perspectives offered by our guests. We know that you will have gained some helpful insights which may impact your own life as a mother and my co host Genevieve Morgan and I wish all the mothers out there and mothering sorts, biologic or otherwise, the happiest of Mother's Days. Thank you for being part of our world. May you have a bountiful life.