Out of the Box, #86

Tom Szelog:

People are very complex, but there's also a very simple side to most people. And I think maybe people refuse to recognize or grasp what their simple side is and enjoy that part of life.

Lee Ann Szelog:

We have to make conscious decisions about the pace of our lives and what we're doing in order to really find the happiness that we strive for inside. And that's different for all of us.

Zachary Theberge:

So my advice for parents trying to get their kids into the outdoors is just encourage them to take them to new places by bringing them out to the outdoors. Usually that is the spark that ignites it, the passion for them.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

From infancy, childhood, teenage years, early adult and adulthood. You know, we're all on a journey and I think for me, integrative medicine has sort of, at least in this stage, has been a big fulfilling factor.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

and you are listening to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast show number 86 out of the box, airing for the first time on Sunday, May 5, 2013. Have you ever felt yourself boxed in by your life? Sometimes the boundaries we believe exist are more perception than reality. This week on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour, we benefit from the perspective of individuals who have gone outside the box. Tom and Leanne Zlog, authors of our point of 14 years at Maine Lighthouse and by a Maine River A Year of Looking Closely Zachary tiberge of the Umaine 4H Camp and Learning center at Bryant Pond and Dr. Stephen Donnelly, founder and owner of the Main center for Integrative Medicine. As a physician trained in public health, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I haven't spent much time in the box. Though I respect tradition, I also see it as a place from which to progress. Isaac Newton is reputed to have said, if I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. We each have known the benefit of legacy of the bounty afforded us by our forefathers and foremothers. If we stop to consider this bounty we realize that we owe much to those who came before us. We also realize that the only means of repayment is through leaving our own legacy for those who will come after, and thus the need to emerge from the box and see how our perspective changes. This week on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour, we we meet four guests who share with us unique perspectives on the world. Tom and Leanne Zlog spent more than a decade living in a main lighthouse before moving to a solitary cabin in the woods. Zachary Tiberge chose to make use of his college education by sharing a love of the outdoors with campers at the University of Maine 4H camp at Bryant Pond. Dr. Steven Donnelly journeyed beyond the boundaries of Western medicine to offer a more integrated model of care to his pediatric patients. Each climbed up upon the shoulders of giants so that he might see further. That climb would not have been possible had they chosen to remain within the comfortable confines of their life's boxes. There is a beautiful world to be experienced outside of the box once we realize that the box we believe ourselves to inhabit doesn't really exist at all. Thank you for joining us on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast this week. We hope that you are finding a

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

way out of your own box and

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

that by listening to the stories of those who have inhabited boxes themselves, you may be inspired to at least look at life a different way.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Many people talk about the idea of living in a lighthouse and seeing what that's like to be sort of right on the edge of the world. People also talk about going into the woods and finding themselves like Thoreau did near Walden Pond. But I'm sitting across from two people who actually thought about this, did it, and then wrote about it, which is unusual. I'm very fortunate to have with me today Tom and Leanne Zlog, who are authors of our point of 14 years at a Maine lighthouse and by a main, a year of looking closely. Thanks for coming in and sharing your experiences with us today as you've shared your books with us today or in the past. Great.

Lee Ann Szelog:

Thank you for having us.

Tom Szelog:

You're welcome, Tom.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I think that this is when I was talking to Lee yesterday. This was something that you've been interested in doing from the beginning. You used to hang out on the shores of the river in Manchester. Is this the Merrimack?

Lee Ann Szelog:

Merrimack River.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Merrimack river in Manchester, New Hampshire. And you were always about nature and you were always about being outside and you picked up a camera pretty early. And what was it about the outdoors that really appealed to you?

Tom Szelog:

I think the first things that garnered my attention to nature and the outdoors was I had come from a large family. I have six brothers and sisters, and my father passed away when I was quite young. So we had very minimal amount of resources to go on fancy vacations and to travel and such. So I was sort of forced to find simpler, cheaper means of entertainment. And I soon discovered that visiting the local parks and streams and rivers really applied a lot of enjoyment to me. They were like many vacations. I looked forward to school vacations because I knew I could spend the whole summer walking the woods and exploring the nearby rivers and streams. And at the time, unbeknownst to me, I was developing this incredible bond and passion towards the outdoors and nature and wildlife.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And your books reflect that. I mean, they're very even. Right on the front cover, there's a picture of a couple of frog eyes coming from a frog looking up at us through the water and a squirrel looking at us head on. So there is this connection that you've made with these creatures in order that you could actually take a photo of them.

Tom Szelog:

Yeah, it's not easy for me to say, but I actually tend to relate to nature and wildlife and being alone outdoors. When I am in the forest by myself with my cameras, sitting in my wildlife photography blind, I'm actually at my happiest. And when I'm sitting in a studio in downtown Portland, I'm actually not at my happiest.

Lee Ann Szelog:

Although we're happy to be here.

Tom Szelog:

Oh, well, I don't take it personally.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

No, I understand that.

Lee Ann Szelog:

The way I look at it is I'm Tom's wife, but he also has a mistress, and his mistress is Mother Nature.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Wow, that's very open and accepting of you.

Tom Szelog:

You knew all along I thought I was really good at hiding that.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, and you've also. It is. It does. It speaks to something that I think a lot of people feel. The simultaneous desire to be solitary and to convene with nature, but also the very real need to be out and about in the world and make a living and pay the mortgage. So I think there is that pull in either direction for many people.

Tom Szelog:

Well, it's a difficult balance for me, being a professional photographer, because I realize I do need a source of income. And to obtain this income, I have to interact with people and get out there, get outside the box, so to speak. But I make up for it by spending as much time as possible in the field and enjoying Mother Nature.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Now, Lee, you seem like if there's a yin and yang element to this you seem like you offer more of that, Yang, more of that outgoing energy. More of that. Well, your business is really very connective. You do a lot of public speaking, but you also started your career with the knowledge that you yourself were fairly shy.

Lee Ann Szelog:

Yes, I was. I still, deep down inside, am very shy. When I was seven years old, I had my first aha moment, although I didn't realize it at the time, but I saw a girl I went to school with who was shyer than I was, and I looked at her and felt sorry for her. And I thought, I don't want to be like that person. So at that point, in my very young age, I decided that I wanted to break through, and I started to raise my hand more in school. I started to volunteer as much as I could. I fight it every single day. It amazes me to think what I do now. I do public speaking. I teach a lot of classes on communication. Absolutely love what I do. I work at it every single day. And I think that's something that we all just have to make conscious decisions every single day. You talk about how challenging it is to, as Tom was talking about, spend as much time in nature and really, really bonding with nature because we're, you know, we're so overwhelmed with technology and information in this day and age, and we're all running so fast. And when I was 25 years old, I was running just as fast. And fortunately for me, I met Tom, and he helped me to slow down and to appreciate our surroundings. And that really has led to where I am in my career, in my life right now. I have slowed down. I can appreciate the simple pleasures. I make very conscious decisions to stop and observe a soaring bald eagle or look out the window and enjoy the forsythias that were just blooming across the street when we walked in. We stopped and looked at those. We have to make conscious decisions about the pace of our lives and what we're doing in order to really find the happiness that we strive for inside. And that's different for all of us. But that's what we have to do to get there. And that's what Tom strives to do with his nature and wildlife photography. And that's what I strive to do as well in my business.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That is an important point because I believe that many people think of themselves as either introverted or extroverted. Either they like a party or they like the quiet. And sometimes you may like one or the other. There may be a sweet spot for you, but you still have to make a choice to kind of exist within the bigger world, whatever that looks like. And whether it's you choosing to kind of slow down and exist within this world where you're looking at the bald eagle or you're looking at the forsythia, or whether Tom kind of pulls on his, you know, let's go work with the world and sit in front of a microphone in the radio studio, you know, outfit, I mean, they're both choices that end up being made.

Lee Ann Szelog:

And it's that balance, I think, that Tom mentioned a few minutes ago. We have to find that balance that's right for all of us. And the first step in finding that right balance is discovering within ourselves

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

what

Lee Ann Szelog:

are my strengths, what do I love doing, what's more challenging and striking that balance. But that's a discovery we all have to make for ourselves.

Tom Szelog:

Individuals have to take responsibility for their own happiness. If you're not happy, you've got no one else to blame but yourself.

Lee Ann Szelog:

Right?

Tom Szelog:

It's a tough pill as well, but that's the bottom line. You've got to make yourself happy. No one else is going to do

Lee Ann Szelog:

it for you, and no one's going to change your life but you. If you don't like something in your life, whether it's you struggle with a relationship, a situation in your life, that person isn't going to change. If you're struggling with a relationship, that person isn't going to change. But if you change, what's going to happen? If you change your approach to that person, what's going to happen is they're going to change their approach back. So it's a conscious decision. We all have to take responsibility, as Tom said. And you know, it's hard work. It doesn't happen overnight.

Tom Szelog:

When I was younger, I had. My father passed away young, and I had three older brothers who I looked up as fatherly figures, and I adored them. I wanted to be whatever they wanted to be. I wanted to go wherever they wanted to go. And I eventually learned that they weren't the types of persons you look up to. They had their problems. And when I made the decision, well, I'm going to change, I'm not going to. It was a difficult decision to make, but I had to decide that I was not going to look up to him anymore as fatherly figures. It was a very big decision in my young life, and it eventually led me to IM today, which is a very happy person, content person.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This back and forth that I see in front of me and that I know our listeners can hear between the two of you Is something that has developed over many years. You met in your 20s and you committed yourselves to these interesting lives. Living in a lighthouse, living in the woods, simultaneously, being a photographer. And also, you said you worked Lee, in the banking industry for many years, but you had to keep, again, making conscious decisions to come together as a couple and constantly reevaluate. Is this where we want to be going, and this is how we're going to be doing it? And talk to me about that.

Tom Szelog:

Well, we matured a lot as our relationship matured. We were maturing individually as persons, and I think we were very lucky that we both synced a lot when it came to how we wanted to live our lives and what we perceived our future being. And we were very lucky. When I needed some support, Leon was always there to support me and vice versa. And I think those are very important factors in our success and happiness.

Lee Ann Szelog:

Yeah, I would say we really evolved. Living at the lighthouse was a dream come true for me, A dream that I had since I was six years old. Tom on our second or when we first met. Lighthouses were a mutual subject that brought us together. And I shared with him my dream of living in a lighthouse. And to make a long story short, part of it was being at the right place at the right time. But I also truly believe in the power of our thoughts and fate. And it was meant for us to be at Marshall Point. And that was a big turning point as far as our growth together. We moved in there the week before we got married. And living at Marshall Point, Tom really introduced me to nature and wildlife, Helped me to slow down. He opened my eyes to nature and wildlife. Mother Nature opened my heart to that. Living at Marshall Point helped me mature even more in that respect. Enjoying and appreciating our natural surroundings, our natural beauty, Living on the edge of the continent and seeing the wildlife and the weather and the events that people would come and celebrate there. It really helped me to appreciate more than ever before the simple pleasures of life. And so we really grew together at the lighthouse. That was a very special time and helped us, as Tom said, mature together.

Tom Szelog:

Lee and I are no different from most people. People are very complex, but there's also a very simple side to most people. And I think maybe people refuse to recognize or grasp what their simple side is and. And enjoy that part of life.

Lee Ann Szelog:

There's so many distractions nowadays.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Lee, you're right. There are a lot of distractions. And I think it makes it hard from a practical standpoint for people to focus on the bigger picture. And from the nature all around them. What are some of the things that you talk to people about in order for them to really tune in more?

Lee Ann Szelog:

Well, as we have mentioned, it's all everything in life is about choices. And even down to how we practically how we from a practical standpoint implement whatever changes and choices that we want. For example, with all the distractions we have, with all the technology is really what I'm talking about. The distractions. We have to make a conscious decision to put that technology down, put it away. We are so worried. Our society has created this mindset that we're so worried we're going to miss something on our cell phone or our mobile device. But think about what you're missing in the present. If you're so distracted with what you're going to miss on your mobile device, you are undoubtedly going to miss something even greater one on one. So you have to make that conscious decision to turn the TV off, turn the computer off, put the cell phone away, whatever it happens to be. That's one piece of advice. Live in the present, live in the moment. Put that away. It'll be there. And that's what Tom and I have really tried to do. And I think that's what's made such a difference in our lives and has helped us grow together and bond. Because we do spend a lot of quality time together, we don't allow for those other distractions.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We'll return to our program in a

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Moment on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast. We've long understood the important link between health and wealth. Here to speak more on the subject is Tom Shepard of Shepherd Financial.

Zachary Theberge:

A few years ago, we gave a talk called Raise your Kids, Raise yourself, Raise youe Money. In it, we introduced a broader concept of currency. We pointed out how the little things like a smile, giggle, first step, and milestones along the way make the bad stuff seem worth it. This led us to talk about how our kids learn about money. Done well, a child will come to understand that money has value in their lives that transcends our simply forking it over upon request. They will find that value is discovered, shared, made, earned, invested, loaned and given. Interestingly enough, we found that when we teach this subject to our kids, we get to learn it a second time. There are many resources to help you integrate learning about money into raising your kids. To learn more, browse our Shepherd Financial Facebook page or send us an email

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

As I was reading through your book point of view, 14 years at a main lighthouse and you're talking about Marshall Point. And I've been to Marshall Point myself. One of the intersections. For me that was very powerful was your discussion of coming across the family of James Andrew, also called Drew Griffith, who was a Maine state trooper fatally injured in an automobile accident in Thomaston. And we had his wife, Kate Braestrup, on the show back a year and a half or so ago. So when I happened across this in the book, it just kind of brought me right back to that time and to what that meant to her family. You intersected with a lot of families over the time at Marshall Point. You started saw weddings, I think you saw maybe a baptism. And I mean, it wasn't just animals and birds. It was people who were bringing really significant parts of their lives to you at the lighthouse. What did that mean to you?

Tom Szelog:

Well, we discovered over the years that the lighthouse was a place of pilgrimage for many people. People would come from across the world literally to visit Marshall Point. And we observed people doing things as simply as taking a nap or playing a game of checkers. But we also observed numerous things that we never expected, such as elaborate weddings or people scattering the cremated remains of their loved ones or if you can picture full immersion baptisms in the cold Atlantic in the springtime. And I think what we experience is something that a lot of people have the opportunity to experience, and that is to see people at the most vulnerable and to be able to witness and experience this literally from the comfort of your own living room by just looking out the window, perhaps. But we often would engage people and learn more about why they were visiting the lighthouse and what brought them there and lured them to this beautiful area. And we were able to experience something that really no one probably has ever experienced before. It's a very rare, unique opportunity, and we never expected that to occur when we moved in there, we knew we were going to move into an environment that was very unique and spectacular, but we never expected all the human drama that we experienced there. It's really quite fascinating not only as from a psychological standpoint, but from an artistic standpoint with all the unique opportunities that we had to photograph.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I do think this idea of pilgrimage is very relevant because the family of the Griffith Braestrup family, I mean, they actually put a bench out in honor of Drew who had passed away in this accident. So the lighthouse is not just a physical beacon, but it's almost a spiritual and emotional beacon of sorts of very much, very much.

Tom Szelog:

We tried to interact with people as much as possible. I mean, sure, there were very many times where we would just observe from the inside the keeper's house, but more often or not, we tried to get out and talk to him and visit with them. And that one on one interaction revealed a lot about humanity.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This book that you've created, created by a Maine river, is kind of the ongoing story of your love, Tom, of nature and your love, Leanne of connection. I think you also are doing a project with the north woods and you have a website that is involved with bringing people back to nature.

Tom Szelog:

Yes, we've developed a project called the Maine Woods National Park Photo Documentation Project. And essentially it's a photo documentation project of the proposed 3.2 million acre Maine Woods National Park. And our goal of this project is to inspire and motivate people to want to contribute towards the creation of this beautiful area of the state. And with the ultimate goal of creating a book in a fine art traveling exhibit to show people and put a face above this place to people to see how beautiful and wonderful this part of the world is and what an incredibly unique opportunity we have as citizens of the state of Maine.

Lee Ann Szelog:

It's a very fragile and magnificent ecosystem that's really on the verge of destruction or protection. And it's all really based on all of us as human beings, the human species, looking to protect our natural world. It's a remarkable place and it deserves protection. So we're trying to use Tom's photographs and our words together to inspire and educate people to rally behind the support and the creation of the proposed Maine Woods National Park.

Tom Szelog:

I think a lot of people tend to take this part of Maine for granted. Maybe more so from southern people right here in Portland. I have been involved in some form or fashion with wildlife and conservation groups for approximately 40, 45 years. I have been to some of the greatest national parks this country has created and I seriously believe that a Maine Woods national park could easily be one of the flagship parks in this country. I think it's as equal to with Yellowstone national park, with its grand scenery and its abundance of wildlife and biodiversity. I think we really have a very unique opportunity in Maine to create something that is just beyond belief. I think most people really don't understand that they should take a few minutes to either read on the Internet or grab a book or even visit the area and try to get an idea of what this opportunity is. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I think, like Lee said, we're either going to save it or we're going to destroy it. What's it going to be?

Lee Ann Szelog:

Me, you know, and this project for us is kind of the next chapter of the evolution in our lives together. I talked about how Tom opened my eyes to the beauty and tranquility of nature and wildlife when we moved to our log cabin. And Tom, we didn't live there a month. And Tom said, you know what I'd love to do? We have 70 acres. Tom said, you know what I'd love to do is I'd love to take a year off someday and photograph just the nature and wildlife on our 70 acres to show people just how closely we live to nature and wildlife. And then oftentimes all we have to do is step outside our back door to experience it and slow down. I thought, because, because he had brought me so far, I thought it was a great idea. I said, just do it. So January 1, 2004, he started the project and finished it December 31. From that, we said to ourselves, okay, what else can we do? And we looked beyond our backyard and that's how we founded the Maine Woods National Park Photo Documentation Project. Because we wanted to look at, okay, well, what kind of exposure can we give to our own backyard in Maine? And that's what led us to that. And you know, we need to remember that we too are a species, the human species. And protection of our natural world is just as important to us as it is to the wild, the wildlife that call that habitat home.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

There are so many different directions we could go with this conversation, but I know people who are listening will want to learn more about the work that you're doing. They'll want to read your books, they'll want to get involved in the organization. So where can they find out more about you?

Lee Ann Szelog:

Well, I would direct them to the mainwoodsnationalpark.com website, so www.mainewoodsnationalpark.com that has information about our photo documentation project. It also has the books there and it has a link to my website with the public speaking that I do. It's leannezlog.com, but I'm sure people stumble over how to spell that. So the easiest thing, mainwoodsnationalpark.com and they can find everything they want to know about us through that website.

Tom Szelog:

Now you used the word organization. I think it's important to note that we are not an organization. We are just Lee and I. We're just two simple lay people who have a conviction and a passion to want to make a contribution in our own way. And I surely encourage many people to. Don't look at organizations. Look at yourself. You've got the power in yourself to change the world and make yourself happy.

Lee Ann Szelog:

And we do Tom and I. I do presentations on my own about communication, but Tom and I also do presentations about our books and the Maine Woods national park, the proposed Maine Woods National Park. If people have a group that they want to learn more about the proposed park, we're happy to do a multimedia presentation that we do that actually features the music of legendary folk singer Pete Seeger. He was kind enough to allow us to use some of his music for our presentation, which we're thrilled about.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I'm glad that you've pointed out that it's the two of you. It's not an organization. And I think that each of us can act as individuals and go out there and do what needs to get done and be passionate about how we live our lives. So I have myself felt inspired sitting with you this morning and taking the time to talk to Tom and Leanne Zeelog, authors of our point of 14 years at Amaine Lighthouse and by Amaine river and proponents of saving the Maine woods. So thank you for coming in and talking to us today.

Tom Szelog:

Welcome.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Our pleasure.

Lee Ann Szelog:

Thank you for having us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

The goal of the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour is to help make connections between

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

the health of the individual and the health of the community.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

The goal of Ted Carter Inspired Landscapes

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

is to deepen our appreciation for the natural world. Here to speak with us today is Ted Carter.

Zachary Theberge:

We live in a very coarse and ugly world today.

Tom Szelog:

barrage of predatory commercials, murders, chaos, economic peril, wars, ethnic cleansing, rape, on and on.

Zachary Theberge:

theologians, writes, even amidst chaos and disorder, something in the human mind continues to seek beauty.

Tom Szelog:

Land and landscape offer this refuge. When I work with clients, I always envision how these lovely landscaped areas will

Zachary Theberge:

make them whole once again. Refreshed and in balance, they can now

Zachary Theberge:

awaits them beyond this magical oasis.

Tom Szelog:

For more information, you can reach me@tedcarterdesign.com

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour is all

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

about health, the environment, education, kids. So it makes a lot of sense that we would have somebody else who feels pretty much the same way we do on our show. With us today, we're talking with with Zachary Tiberij of the University of Maine's

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

4H camp and environmental Learning center at Bryant Pond.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Thanks for coming in and having a conversation with us.

Zachary Theberge:

No problem. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How did you get involved in environmental education?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Why did this become a passion for you?

Zachary Theberge:

Being born and raised in Maine, I've kind of been surrounded by the Maine coast, the forests and everything around. And really what kind of brought me into, to being into the outdoors was the Chewonki foundation. There's a foundation in Wiscasset, Maine. And that kind of being a camper there and going on and doing their semester program just kind of brought me into the realm of the environment. And then I went to the University of Vermont and then I studied environmental science and forestry. So that was like really good reinforcement. And, and then I realized that, you know, I'm learning this, all this new material for the first time. But like, how did I get into it? And so I started to think back on how I got into what I got into. And I remembered being inspired when I was at the Chewonki Foundation. So I wanted to pass that on to the younger generation, you know, because it's always good to, to build upon the youth, especially, especially now. And so I was looking for positions that would help me educate youths and Bryant Pond 4H Camp, part of the Umaine extension. I applied and got the position and it was just, it was really wonderful.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So what types of things did you do when you were there?

Zachary Theberge:

Everything. It was, we do a lot of stuff for the kids in the spring and in the fall, it's A school program, it's more based around school programs. So we bring different classes ranging from second grade all the way up to like high school from all around Oxford County. And the school groups, they come to us for several days, even as long as a week, and they stay overnight. They stay in our bunkhouse, which is heated by a wood stove, and they eat family style in our dining hall. And we as field teachers teach them about ecology, sense of place. And we also do a lot of team building to establish their class as a unit for that school year to go on and to be a strong school year, I guess. And in the summertime it's a summer camp. And so they do a bunch of different week long programs, like from anywhere, from Primitive Skills, where they learn how to start fires from flint and a bowstring, or they build shelters, or there's pioneer camp where they kind of recreate the western movement to Oregon. And anyway, they do such a variety of things and I think it's really cool that they encompass all, all of it into that one campus center in Brian Pond.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

What are some of the major themes of this environmental education that you're doing with the kids?

Zachary Theberge:

A lot of what we do is natural science, so kind of like an intro to the natural sciences, so it'd be ecology. But a lot of times, you know, we can't introduce like really in depth levels of science to these kids just because, you know, it's just they don't retain it. But really what we're trying to do is we're trying to inspire the kids and to get them outdoors. And what I've always kind of used as my motive is establishing a sense of place for the kids. So these kids, they'll go to the camp and we try to have them feel as home, feel about as home as they can get at the camp and really establish the relationship between the kids and the outdoors. By establishing that relationship with the kids and the outdoors, you can oftentimes ignite a spark, you know, or use that spark and ignite a passion for them, for the outdoors. And that's what happened to me. And so that's like what I like to carry on and pass on to them is establishing that sense of place in the outdoors. Because a lot of times they think of it as a second home and they treat it like a home. And like, how do you treat a home? You take care of it, you know, you, you invite other people to your home. It's where you live, it's where, you know, it's where you do it's where you are pretty much all the time. And so as Bryant Pond's part of a home, the children, the kids, they tend to treat the outdoors as their home.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

For parents who want to reconnect their kids to the outdoors, what suggestions do you have?

Zachary Theberge:

Get them out there. I know it sounds simple, but really just let them explore. A lot of times parents will let the kids go outside, but they have such a tight figurative leash on their kids, and they don't let them run around and get dirty, you know, because then they'll have to do laundry or whatever for whatever reason. They don't let their kids just explore. And I think that's such an important part about being a kid and learning is letting your kid roam and explore, get dirty, turn up rocks, you know, climb a tree. I think those are really good experiential ways to have your kid grow. And I think so my advice for parents trying to get their kids into the outdoors is just encourage them, take them to new places. You know, Maine is a beautiful area. We have so many parks and so many natural areas that it's hard to not get to one. And so by bringing them out to the outdoors, getting them away from what we call the world of rectangles, you have your computer screen as a rectangle, you have your Game Boy as a rectangle. And so we try to get away from the world of rectangles and into the outdoors. And usually that is the spark that ignites it, the passion for them.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How can people learn more about the camp and the school that you worked at?

Zachary Theberge:

Yeah. So Bryant Pond's a part of the Umaine extension program. It is also. And through that, it's part of the 4H. So 4H stands for head, heart, hands and health. And the cooperative extension aims to bring the information that is gathered and studied at the University of Maine and try to bring it out to the public. And the 4h part is more of a the kids outreach and how to get them involved. And it's been around for a long time. And so my suggestion to get involved with you made Bryant Pond is. First of all, they have a wonderful website you can go. But my ultimate suggestion is to go there, is to check it out. Because websites and all that, they're usually great. And the website has a lot of information on it, but you don't get quite as much information as if you just went and you go and you see where your child would be and where he'd be playing, you know, and all of these, the wonderful things that they have there and they're so accommodating they would be more than happy to have you take a tour of the campus and show you around.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I appreciate your coming in and spending time talking with me about your experience being part of The University of Maine's 4H camp and environmental Learning center at Bryant Pond. It's been a pleasure talking with you today, Zach.

Zachary Theberge:

Thanks, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We'll return to our interview in a moment.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We on the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast hope that our listeners enjoy

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

their own work lives to the same

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

extent we do and fully embrace every day. As a physician and small business owner, I rely on Marcy Booth from Booth, Maine to help me with my own business and to help me live my own life fully. Here are a few thoughts from Marcy.

[Unidentified voice]:

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Dr. Lisa Belisle:

As we move forward in healthcare, we need to be spending time looking back at traditions that have worked for us both from a Western standpoint and an Eastern standpoint through nutrition and herbs and yoga. Things that have an evidence base behind them and also anecdotally work for our patients. So I'm pleased to have with me today Dr. Stephen Donnelly, a pediatrician that trained with me at the Maine Medical Center a few years ago and went and got additional fellowship training in integrative medicine with Dr. Andrew Weil in Arizona and has come back to the state of Maine and founded the Maine center for Integrative Medicine. Thank you for coming back and bringing integrative medicine to the state of Maine.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

Great to be here.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Dr. Donnelly, why did you become a pediatrician in the first place?

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

I love working with kids and it's kind of a funny story how I ended up becoming a physician to begin with. I actually started college as a music major. I wanted to be a music teacher. Got in there and realized that, you know, I just want to keep music as a hobby. I didn't want to do it as a profession. And then from there I decided to be a psychology major and found out to do anything in psychology you have to have a PhD. And I said, well, she's I might as well be a physician. So I kind of fell into it that way. But ultimately when you look at the underlying theme is I like working with people and ultimately I like working with kids. From music teacher to pediatrician. There is that one link, although it kind of does seem a little roundabout.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you chose to go into the type of medicine which I've always considered to be very integrative from the beginning. You actually have osteopathic degree rather than an allopathic degree. You are trained as what we say is a do, correct? Why did you make that decision?

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

I researched it and I liked the philosophy behind osteopathic medicine and honestly a big part of it Was, it was right in my backyard. I grew up in Maine. I was born in Bangor, graduated high school from Caribou High School. University of Southern Maine is where I went to college. And so, so knowing that medical school can be very stressful, I figured, well, hey, let's take the, you know, changing my location of where I live, let's take that out of the equation. And Une was right in my backyard. And again, I liked their philosophy and their approach and it just made sense.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We hear a lot about the brain drain and people leaving the state of Maine once they've gotten their education because theoretically they can't make a living here. But it seems like you are proving the opposite.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

Well, I'm hoping to. I have been an employed physician really from the get go since 98 when I finished residency. And just this, you know, back In July of 2011, I decided to open up my own practice, the Main center for Integrative Medicine. So I'm working at it and it's, you know, very, very satisfying. And I'm hoping to make that a long lasting fixture in the Maine medical community.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We had Dr. Craig Schneider, who is the head of Integrative Medicine at Maine Medical center, on our show last year. But for people who haven't been listening, and perhaps they'll all go back and listen to that podcast, but for right now, tell us what integrative medicine really is.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

Integrative medicine is really a blend of conventional medicine with everything else that's out there. There's a lot of focus, as you said, on nutrition, which kind of boggles my mind that nutrition would be considered like an alternative or complementary type of medicine. It's what makes us us. But anyway, there's a lot of focus on nutrition, herbs, supplements, where appropriate. Other modalities of delivering healthcare like osteopathic medicine, manual medicine like osteopathy, chiropractic, physical therapy, traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, naturopathy, homeopathy, mind body medicine, spirituality. Probably leaving something out, but that's kind of. It blends all of those modalities in with conventional medicine and to try to optimize a plan of care for an individual.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Why did you decide that you wanted to go back and get this fellowship training with Dr. Andrew Weil in Arizona?

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

Well, the big thing that I was really interested in was nutrition. And it's embarrassing the lack of that that we get in our traditional medical training. You know, we learn that in if you don't get enough vitamin C, you get scurvy. If you don't get enough vitamin D. You get rickets, but from the nuts and bolts. Practical application to give to patients and families on diet and nutrition just isn't there. And so I was trying to research that on my own. And it's sometimes hard to weed through. We all hear that. Don't look at the Internet because you'll find, you know, a whole gamut of things. But that was really the big thing, because I knew Dr. Weil was really big into nutrition. And actually Matt Hand, who's a pediatric nephrologist, locally, or was locally, he did the fellowship a few years before me, and he and I got talking and he showed me sort of the program, and I said, I have to do that. That's exactly what I want to do. So, lo and behold, a few years later, I went and did it. So nutrition was sort of the driving piece, given that I felt lacking in my ability to educate patients and families based on my conventional training.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

For people who are interested in reading about Matt Hand, Maine Magazine actually did a profile of him in the Wellness issue about a year ago, again, along with Dr. Craig Schneider. So this is something that we've been actually maybe two, two years ago now, but this is something that I think people are paying more and more attention to, but they're paying more and more attention to it for themselves as adults. And you treat children. Is there an upsurge of interest in integrative medicine for kids?

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

I don't know if there's an upsurge, but I think these parents or these adults that are looking at it for themselves are wondering about it for their children as well. So, yeah, a lot of people are looking at or dissatisfied with just the conventional approach to a lot of things and looking for that integrative approach for their children as well as themselves.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Like you said, one of the things that you and I talked about before we came on the air was this idea of inflammation, and inflammation being a problem that has been more recently recognized as underlying many of the diseases that cause not only acute but chronic problems. Talk to me a little bit about that.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

Well, there's some interesting research and based on a hypothesis that one common thread between those big ailments that are killing us basically, as a society is, like you said, inflammation. If you look at the big to heart disease and cancer, those have been the big two killers since the 50s or 60s, and nothing's really changed, despite all our conventional technology and pharmaceuticals and stuff. So these are the two big things that are killing us, and they've been killing us for decades. But what's come out is again this root cause of inflammation being behind these, these ailments. But things like arthritis, inflammatory bowel asthma, all these things are on the rise. And new research actually is looking at even mental health issues, things that we didn't really think of as having an inflammatory component. There's an interesting theory of depression called the cytokine theory of depression, which is cytokines are inflammatory mediators. So where is this coming from? And there's probably a lot of areas where it could be coming from. But one interesting thing is diet. And a lot of research now is coming out about how really pro inflammatory the standard American diet is. Standard American diet is very processed, very high in carbohydrate, and lacking in some very important fats, omega 3 fats to be specific. So one thing we know about, large fluctuations in blood sugar, for example, based on a high carbohydrate diet, that's what's going to happen. All carbs are converted to sugars. And if there's no fat or protein or fiber in the mix, what happens is you have a very volatile blood sugar. And so you'll have peaks and valleys. And we know at the peaks and valleys of the these blood sugars that inflammatory markers or mediators are made. So that's one driving factor for inflammation. The whole high carb diet probably stems back to the not so good food pyramid of the early 70s where we were told low fat, low fat, low fat, with all good intention. But as we can see today, that really hasn't made a difference in heart disease. And certainly we're more obese now than we ever were. But low fat is synonymous with high carb. So we may have set ourselves up for what we're dealing with right now from the fat standpoint. Like I said, Omega 3 fats we know we get from fish for the most part. And as a society we don't eat a lot of fish. That's where your omega 3 fats are going to come from. And omega 3 fats are the building blocks in the body of hormones that down regulate inflammation and also down regulate cell division. Omega 6 fats, on the other hand, which we get an abundance of more than we need come from the oils of grain, corn oil, sunflower oil, cottonseed oil, soybean oil. We get enough, more than enough of those, but those in the body become the building blocks of hormones that upregulate inflammation. So we have this sort of unopposed pro inflammatory drive of the Omega 6s and the high carb diet. And it's felt that that can be a big factor in a lot of what is ailing us. And so when I talk to families, I talk to families in a broad sense about that. And then depending on what we're dealing with, if there's any issues like ADHD or inflammatory bowel or anything like that, or asthma, then I might tweak it to be more specific for that illness. But everyone who comes and sees me, either in my general pediatric practice in Windham or my integrative practice, they all get the diet talk.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

How can people find out about the Main center for Integrative Medicine?

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

They can look at the website www.themcim.com or give a call. 8990386 and I did spend some time on your website.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You have some really nice blog articles that people can read that talks about nutrition. I also went and looked at the Apothecary By Design presentation. You did. So anybody who has an interest in integrative medicine and nutrition and as it relates to pediatrics or adhd, I do recommend that they go and check you out a little bit.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

Great.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, we've been speaking with Dr. Steven Donnelly, who is the founder of the Maine center for Integrative Medicine here in Portland, Maine. I appreciate your having this open mind and bringing all of your knowledge back to our state and helping people integrate wellness into their lives.

Dr. Stephen Donnelly:

My pleasure.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You have been listening to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and podcast show number 86 out of the box. Our guests have included Tom and Leanne Zlog, Zachary Tiberge, and Dr. Stephen Donnelly. For more information on our guests, visit drlisabelisle.com the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast is downloadable for free on itunes. For our preview of each week's show, sign up for our e Newsletter and like our Dr. Lisa Facebook page. You can also follow me on Twitter and Pinterest Dr. Lisa and read my take on health and well being on The Bountiful Blog bountifulpath.com We love to hear from you. So please let us know what you think of the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour. We welcome your suggestions for future shows. Also let our sponsors know that you have heard about them here. I am privileged that they enable me to bring the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour to you each week. This is Dr. Lisa Belisle hoping that you have enjoyed getting out of the box. Also hoping that you may find a way to at least look at your life in a different way after you finish listening to our show. Perhaps even finding a way to live your life a different way. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your day. May you have a bountiful life.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Sam. Sa. It.