Wellness from Within #224

Kate Braestrup:

All of the harms and hurts and heartbreaks that that have happened to us as adults. So as my son had to point out to me often, but you do this, you manage this, you handle this. Why do you think that I can't or shouldn't?

Vivian Franck:

It was like starting life again at 18 and I was 50 and in a big city. I mean, Van Buren was a very small town.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you are listening to Love Maine radio show number 224, Wellness from Within, airing for the first time on Sunday, January 3, 2016. Each New Year brings with it the opportunity to evaluate the paths our lives have taken and make certain that we are embracing the possibility of wellness within ourselves. In its broadest sense, wellness is being fully integrated and appreciative of all the gifts physical, mental, emotional and spiritual that we have been given. Today we speak about the pursuit of inner wellness with best selling author Kate Braestrup. Vivian Frank, a former nun who wrote a book entitled Forever Becoming. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

today, it is my great pleasure to have back in the studio an individual who has written books that I really love. And so it's just so thrilling to be able to hang out with her again. This is author Kate Braestrup, who is a community minister, chaplain to the Maine Game Warden Service and the author of the New York Times best selling memoir, Here if youf Need Me. Her other works include Marriage and Other Acts of Charity and Beginner's Bringing Prayer to Life. Her latest book is Anchor and A Memoir of Motherhood, Hope and Service. Thanks so much for being back with us again.

Kate Braestrup:

Thanks for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Now, Anchor and Flares. Tell me a little bit about that title.

Kate Braestrup:

Well, the title comes from the instructions for what you're supposed to take with you if you're heading out on a voyage, the sort of minimum safety requirements. You're supposed to have an anchor so you can stop and you're supposed to have flares so you can attract attention. So this actually wasn't my original idea for a title, so there was a lot of discussion about it. I was rooting for the title 10 8. The numbers 108 because in Maine law enforcement numerical code 108 means available for service. And one of the themes of the book that I wrote my way to was how do I define an adult? What does it mean to be an adult in the world? And I decided an adult is 10 8. An adult is available for service

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

and specifically a parent of adults.

Kate Braestrup:

Oh yeah, well, parents are definitely 10 8. But at some point, and for those listeners with young children, I can tell you this does happen. But eventually your children become adults. And because I have six, counting my stepchildren, four of them are mine, two of them are my stepchildren and they all line up like stair steps in terms of age. So one after another, starting with my oldest son Zach, they kind of crossed that threshold and became adults. And each of them, I think of it as each of them has gone 10, eight, each of them has become available for service in the world. And the youngest has now done it too, which is pretty neat.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

My children, my two oldest children are 22. Two and almost 20.

Kate Braestrup:

There you go. They're right on the edge.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

They're right on that edge. Right, exactly. And then I have a 14 year old, so she's just gotten out of the kind of kid stage. And it does seem as the way that one parents really shifts over time. And yet you never stop actually parenting.

Kate Braestrup:

No, no. In fact I was not too long ago I was Crossing the street with my youngest child, Woolie, who's my little baby. And we were crossing that. We were stepping out into the road in Rockland. So there was a line of parked cars and there's the crosswalk. Naturally, we're crossing at the crosswalk where it's safe. And I stepped forward and I put my hand back to hold my daughter back until I could make sure no cars were coming. She was 22 years old. She was a police officer in uniform. She was carrying a gun. So, yeah, there's some things that just. They're reflexes, they don't change.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. I'm laughing because I have my. I feel exactly the same way about my own 22 year old, you know, who has been out in the world and has traveled to South America and Europe. Exactly. You know, and you still. But you still feel protective. You still. It's just a. It's just a thing.

Kate Braestrup:

You can't stop. It's okay.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And it makes me think about my own parents and how they must feel about me. And of course, I feel like I'm such a big old lady now, you know.

Kate Braestrup:

Exactly. We're the grownups.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Exactly.

Vivian Franck:

So

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

some of the conflicts that I found interesting in your book specifically included Woolly becoming a police officer, for one. Because your friends first husband and Willie's father died in 1996 in the line of duty as a state trooper.

Kate Braestrup:

Yep.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And also the conflict of your son joining the U.S. marines.

Kate Braestrup:

Yes. In 2004. Which was not a good moment.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Right.

Kate Braestrup:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you're a. I believe you consider yourself to be a pacifist.

Kate Braestrup:

Relatively. I certainly.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And that's probably evolved, of course.

Kate Braestrup:

Yeah, it was certainly very challenging. I'd like to think actually that I was. I had a more principled objection really than just first. When Zach first approached me about. Had never occurred to me. And given that there were two wars going on, wars that I had opinions about, given that my father had been a Marine, my husband obviously had been a state trooper, which is not military, but it's kind of paramilitary in a way. And given that I work in uniform with uniformed police officers who carry guns and all of that sort of thing, you would think that I would have evolved a better sort of more coherent view of my own children's responsibilities and vulnerabilities to violence in the world, as well as just violence in our community, let's say. But I hadn't. It really had never occurred to me that one of my children would want to do this. And in my defense, he was only 16, maybe 17. Going on 17 when it came up. So, you know, we hadn't really gotten that far. We were only just beginning to think about college and that sort of thing, so. But college was definitely my plan. And so when he joined the Marines, it was a real struggle, partly because he joined. And I always want to call it the. I always want to call it early admission, but it's delayed entry, the delayed entry program, which meant you join, you sign up while you're still young, too young to do it, and they prepare you for boot camp. Your recruiter kind of works with you getting you ready for boot camp, which is actually a good thing. But it meant that I had to sign the paperwork, and that was a real struggle. I have never had such a hard time signing my name ever, or taken so long to do it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And that is the interesting thing that happens in that age range. I mean, whether it is having some influence over where your child goes to college, perhaps because you're footing the bill, or whether you're signing your name to something that says it's okay for him to fight for his country. I mean, that's always the challenge is they have their own responsibility and their own free will and their own determinations

Kate Braestrup:

and their own trajectory in life. Which is one of the things that was strange, and one of the reasons I wrote the book, really, is that I felt as though I had not really anticipated that that transition from child to adult was going to be as difficult for them, as complex a task for them, and as difficult for me as a mother or me and my husband as parents. I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me, but I. Maybe because childcare books tend to kind of go up to a certain point and then they stop. And the assumption was always, well, you take care of the kid until they're 18, you send them off to college, and then you're done. Or they go to work and you're done. But whatever, you're done. And they have to make that. They have to cross that threshold. You can't do it for them. And in a lot of ways, you can't even help all that much. And that's really what's tricky, is realizing that this is something they have to kind of pick up and carry and go on with. And in fact, that's the glory of it, is seeing them do it. But it's. It's hard. It's definitely hard. And I definitely learned with kid number one, as it turned out, really what that looks like. And one of the big lessons was that our children aren't safe. And we've spent so much time and energy trying to keep them safe, and they're not safe. They weren't completely safe before they became adults and went off into the world. But once they're out in the world, they're subject to all of the harms and hurts and heartbreaks that have happened to us as adults. So, as my son had to point out to me often, you know, but you do this, you manage this, you handle this. Why do you think that I can't or shouldn't?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I was really struck by the story you told about the way that the citizens of Denmark dealt with the Jewish population during World War II.

Vivian Franck:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And that ultimately only 66. Zero Jews ended up losing their lives.

Kate Braestrup:

Danish Jews.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Danish Jews, yes. And you compared the people of Denmark to game wardens. Yeah, because there was some element of, I guess, the personalities that were generated in this culture that caused them to believe that some. In some way, you know, everybody is worthy of being cared for, everybody is worthy of having a life.

Vivian Franck:

Yeah.

Kate Braestrup:

And being protected and being rescued, if necessary. Yeah. I compared. I grew up with that story because my father's family emigrated from Denmark, and we had relatives who actually participated in that, the resistance and the rescue. And so it was always sort of a point of pride, because me, when I was little, that I was half Danish, and I think I almost thought that it meant genetically I was immune from cowardice or moral turpitude or something, that I had this genetic advantage, which of course, isn't true. I mean, if you're talking genetics, Denmark and Germany are virtually identical. They are identical, we have to say, virtually, because the Danes like to think that we're a distinct people, but the reality is it's all one gene pool. So really, it had to do with the culture and the decisions that were made and the attitude that had been cultivated about the worth of human beings, regardless of the things that were at the time dividing human beings all over the place, including in the United States and everywhere else. So this was, for me, kind of touchstone story in my life. And, of course, I raised my children with it. And lo and behold, it turned out they listened to me. Because the willingness to risk yourself in the name of human solidarity and love was part of what made Zach join the Marines, too. That service, especially in extreme circumstances, but really, service, period, always risks the self. There's no such. There's no way to serve without risking yourself. So it was one of the many moments in my motherhood where I realized, shoo. My kids listened to me. Dang. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

One of the stories that I found particularly interesting was about a man who lost his son, which of course happens, unfortunately, all the time with. With the work that you do. You see people who lose their children, but this person was not necessarily the easiest individual to love. He, in fact, had been violent towards people around him and. And at the same time, he still lost his son. And what you're describing, as far as service, I think it is that next level. It is not just willing to take care of the people that we like. It's being willing to take care of really anybody. Some people we may not like at all.

Kate Braestrup:

With good reason.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Right.

Kate Braestrup:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well.

Kate Braestrup:

And that is one of the things that I find so compelling about working with Maine's game wardens is that the way they respond and the intensity and energy they put into trying to help people isn't conditioned by who the victim is. That it really is essentially unconditional. You don't have to deserve it. It is a kind of grace that the wardens give. And really they're giving it on behalf of all of us. I mean, we're fielding them, we're funding this project that's really directed at anybody who needs help, which is a pretty extraordinary thing. And it's something that whenever we discuss, I mean, as a society, we discuss sort of privatizing law enforcement, locking ourselves into gated communities so that. And hiring our own armed guards to protect us or whatever. I really think about how basic, how basic a publicly funded law enforcement agency really is, how basic that is to all of our freedom and all of our human dignity.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I think that's. That's true. And I don't believe the answer has ever been lock yourself away. Because the more that you build walls around yourself, the more the threats will change. And especially in today's world, I mean, the things that have brought our country to its knees really were completely, at least to most of us, completely unforeseen. So you can deal with one visible threat, but there's another one that comes that you can't really prevent. So there is always going to be a need for someone on the front lines. There is who's willing to engage.

Kate Braestrup:

Yeah. And that. That willingness to put yourself in harm's way on behalf of other people is really pretty impressive. And we get to take it for granted. We really do. I mean, I get to walk around thinking of myself as a non violent person because there are people willing to use violence on my behalf. I get to call 911 and someone will show up and try to fix it and try to help. And I'm, you know, there are moments in the book that I describe sort of realizing that again and again, One is going to the firearms training with new game wardens. And these game wardens, by and large, are drawn from a population that's already familiar with firearms. They hunt.

Vivian Franck:

They.

Kate Braestrup:

Several of them had been in the military, so they have a comfort level with guns that I, even after 15 years in this job, I just don't have. I try, I mean, I really try to feel affectionate towards guns, and I just can't. So they always just seem loud and dangerous, especially if I'm holding them. But I did try. I, you know, fire off a few rounds and make a mess of a paper target and try to feel macho. But the end result, what I realized was when I was with them was that they're practicing because people will shoot, try to shoot them. They're practicing so that they can go into situations on our behalf where people will be targeting them. And this year especially, that was extremely clear. So I realized my impulse when I'm with them is when the firearms instructor yells threat, which is what they do to have them respond. My immediate impulse was to jump in front of them, just like, trying to hold Wooly back from walking into the road. These are all like. They're about my children's age, and I react to them like a mother. And I wanted. I. My, like, physical sensation was I wanted to leap in front of these young, armed men so that nobody could hurt them. And having to sort of step back and realize, no, actually they have to go out in front of me. And that's true of my son, too, and true of all my children, really. And in the sense that I'm getting old, and it's now true of my little baby daughter, that she stands between me and the threat now.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, that's. That's. That's a tough one, because no longer can you. It's not even just that you can't protect them because things are dangerous, but they are putting themselves in places where they're almost. I don't know that they're seeking danger, but they're engaging in a much bigger way.

Kate Braestrup:

Right. They've made it their task. And I don't even just mean bullets. I mean, there's that. Fortunately, those are still relatively rare. But, I mean, even there's the sort of psychological danger of being exposed to suffering and to being exposed to evil. My daughter at the moment is working for the computer crimes unit. Which means she investigates child pornography, which means she has to look at child pornography. She has to be exposed to evil on that level. And I don't know how she does it. I made her a little icon for her birthday of Ceres, the Greek goddess who goes into the underworld to rescue Persephone. I told her that's what she's doing. She's going into the underworld to rescue. And that's very impressive to me. So there's. I don't know what you call that. Spiritual danger, psychological danger. And then there's moral danger. They're risking doing something wrong. And when police officer screws up, people can die. Like a doctor or my. My stepdaughter who's an intensive care unit nurse. If she makes a mistake, someone could die. And that's not true of me. That's not true of most of us. And it's a moral danger that they expose themselves to in order to serve.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

This idea of having a front line is an interesting one because it is easy to decide that you don't want to be in the military yourself, but then somebody is going to be in the military. And I remember a patient coming in to tell me that just the psychological. Being in the draft during the Vietnam War, just the psychological impact of pain, possibly having your number up every single day, was so formative for his young adult years that it makes me really grateful for the people who sign up so that we don't. Who volunteer so that we don't have to have an entire nation in this country, young men who end up needing to possibly go into war.

Kate Braestrup:

Well, and in virtually all countries, it's young men. There are very few countries that women serve in combat in any real sense. And there's a reason for that. And I think one of the many ways that we don't see and take for granted the service of others is that I think we are encouraged now not to notice the service of men. We're encouraged not even to notice the service of our husbands, brothers, sons. If there's a weird noise downstairs in the middle of the night, it's my husband's job to check it out. It just is. And once I was walking down the street with my husband before we were married here in Portland, and a guy was coming towards us and he. I don't know what his problem was, but he was in a towering rage. So he was flailing around and screeching and kicking garbage cans or whatever, and he was walking down the sidewalk toward us, and we were just going to walk by him and the whole thing took maybe three seconds. But as we passed by him, my husband, without even consciously doing this, turned his body so that he was between me and this man. And then man went by and he went around the corner and that was the end of it. And my husband didn't even realize that he'd done it. And I realized afterwards, I told him, I recognize that he's done it because one thing about losing a husband is you tend to notice husband stuff when you see it. I noticed it and I said thank you to him. But I also realized had he turned his body so that I was between him and the threat, the relationship would not have lasted very long. So the reality is the expectation is still there. And those of us who count ourselves feminists should not let that blind us to that. We do expect young men to put their bodies in harm's way. Young men, old men, all men for us. And, and that isn't because it doesn't hurt when they get hit. And it doesn't mean that they're any less likely to die than we are. It's that they're stronger. And historically they've been considered expendable.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I'm thinking about my son, my 22 year old. I know. And I'm thinking about his. Well, I was in my family, the oldest of 10, and the first four of us were girls. Yeah. So my relationship with my five brothers is very different than my relationship eventually did become with my son. And I think it has come to, not only is it that men are asked to protect in many cases, but also provide. They're also, and these are roles that despite the fact that women are in the workplace and women are in the military and women are also protecting and providing, this is still something that is kind of deeply. And I think that when women were, when we were, I don't know, I guess released out into the world more avidly, this never went away.

Kate Braestrup:

No, no. And what did go away? Maybe. And I don't know, I'm always suspicious of attempts to kind of hearken back to some better day, because when you go back, it never really looks that great close up. So I would say going forward, one of the things that women could do is be more appreciative of what we in fact still ask men to do for us. We could be a little more appreciative of it. If nothing else, we could stop, you know, making the sort of eye rolling remarks about men that are considered okay and polite company and ought not to be.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah, that's true. I think it's far less likely that one could get away with making an eye rolling remark about women.

Kate Braestrup:

Oh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You think? No.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Yeah. But doesn't it come back to again, this thing that you described about the nation of Denmark? Just that we all have intrinsic value as human beings and perhaps some of us will choose one role, some of us will choose a different role, some of us have roles that have been modified based on our gender. But there is a value that each of us has.

Kate Braestrup:

Yeah. And actually each of us has multiple capabilities. It's not that. I mean, if I'm the only person in the house, you know, with the children, let's say when they were young and there's a weird noise downstairs, then it's my job. And in fact, when I'm in a room full of women, if something happens that seems threatening, I'm usually the one that like takes on the protective role. I don't know why. Probably because I hang around law enforcement, so I'm channeling them somehow. So it isn't that we don't have it or that women can't be protective or in fact aren't expected to be and have to be protective, including self protective. I mean, it's not that. It's more just. Well, all of it really is about seeing. It's about the willingness to see. And our ideas and theories about things can get in the way of seeing. We can shift the lens that lets us see one thing really clearly, but it tends to blur out other things. So it's important, I think, to shift the lens periodically and make sure you're not missing anything that really matters or anyone that really matters.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Kate, how can people find out about the work that you're doing, including Anchor and Flair's A Memoir of Motherhood, Hope and Service?

Kate Braestrup:

They can go to my website, which is just katebraestrup.com would probably be the easiest way.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I appreciate the time that you've taken to consider what you've seen in your life, not only as a mother, but as a community minister, chaplain to the Maine game warden, service author. I think that this life, considering one's life and taking the time to write it down and sharing this with other people, I think it's important and I personally, I very much enjoy your works. And every time one comes out, I think, okay, this will be my morning read for the next few weeks.

Kate Braestrup:

Oh, thank you. Good, I'm glad.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We've been speaking with Kate Braestrup, who does many things but is most recently the author of Anchor and Flares and I encourage those of you who are listening to go out and give it a read. Go to Kate's website to learn more about the other work that she's doing. Thanks so much for coming in.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

At the age of 18, Vivienne Frank left her home to become a nun in a French Canadian order. After 30 years of living as a nun, she realized it was time for her journey to being in the larger world and left the convention. She hasn't regretted her decision once. Her book Forever Becoming is about her lifelong search for spiritual meaning, truth and freedom. I love the fact that you have butterflies on the COVID of your book. Thank you so much for coming in.

Vivian Franck:

You're very welcome and thank you for having me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You were raised during an interesting time and you're from Northern Maine, Way up there. Way up there from a relatively small town.

Vivian Franck:

Yes, very small. I think not quite 5,000 people.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So from reading your book, it struck me that during the time that you became a nun, this was sort of expected in French Canadian Catholic families.

Vivian Franck:

Well, this was Hope, you know, that people hoped that they would have either a priest or a nun in the family, especially large families such as mine. And my mother was really sold on that and made me promise to become a nun when I was 8 years old. But although I never set, you know, a verbal promise, I just smiled because you didn't say no to my mother. And she took that for a yes. And then she never let me forget. She would always introduce me as the one who was going to become a nun. So that stayed with me.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

That seems like a lot of pressure on an eight year old.

Vivian Franck:

Well, yeah, I didn't put too much attention to it. She would introduce me that way and then I'd go and do my stuff and play and all of that. But in my teen years, I started reading Lives of Saints and I was very moved by the Life of St Therese of the Child Jesus. And I wanted to be like her. She was so loving and had so much confidence in God, and so she was a great influence in my life. I read her life, the Histoire du Narme, every year for many, many years, and she was very, very helpful.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You were describing in your book a scene where you were walking down the street with one of your sisters. Yes. And it was a difficult conversation because she had a lot of frustration and anger about her life. And you wanted to be loving and supportive to. Because. In part because of this whole idea that you should be loving and supportive toward everyone.

Vivian Franck:

Yes. Yes. So I learned that art of loving very early on, and I think it was part of my nature, too. When I had a sister who was pretty mean to me during the fifth and sixth grades and the second year that I was there, I just did an act of kindness out of, you know, and she turned around completely. And every time I'd see her, she had tears in her eyes. So all I did was, you know, say a few words of kindness to her. She needed help, I could see. And we were in church and I had seen her sit down and her face was just as white as a sheet. Nobody else noticed. So I went to one of the nuns and I said, she is ill. So Mother Marie Louis Chanel et my l'. Od. So that changed her. Isn't that amazing? Just a little act like that. So that encouraged me to be as loving as I could.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, that is an interesting turnaround. If you're seeing someone that is one of the sisters that's educating you and you're realizing that nobody else is seeing what you're seeing and you're a Young child. But this, somehow, this created a bridge between you and this sister which previously hadn't existed.

Vivian Franck:

Yeah, yeah. And when I became a nun later on, you know, and I'd meet her occasionally because we didn't live in the same house, she would always tear up and, you know, and I knew it was just from that. So that lasted the rest of her life. Isn't that great?

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, it is great. And it's also an interesting. Your book, you called it forever becoming. The ever deepening realization of presence in my life. And what this says to me is that we, all of us are always in a state of becoming. We're only wherever we are for whatever millisecond that is, and then we move on. And whoever we're interacting with similarly, they are just exactly where they are at that moment. So all of us are constantly in a state of flux or forever becoming. Mm. But yours started when you were younger by. It was more external. It was more what you were being told by the church you shouldn't believe in.

Vivian Franck:

Yes. And it was mostly rote stuff. And a lot of stuff didn't make any sense to me, but there was nobody that I could talk to. That was a big thing in growing up. You know, none of my teachers would have listened. None of the family. You know, I would have really been. Had a hard put down. That would have been the end of it. So I kept everything to myself. And then, you know, when I. After being influenced by St. Therese's book, then at some point I realized that the best way for me was to get out of that environment was to enter a convention. That's the way God worked with me. I didn't realize it until much later on, but that's the way I had to go. Because if I had opted to marry, none of what happened would have happened because I had every opportunity to grow spiritually. And there were some hard times, especially at the beginning, until ahead. This experience with Christ, you know, which kind of pulled me right out of where I was.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, describe to me what was going on in northern Maine as you were growing up. Just the culture and the history. What was the time period and what was going on around you?

Vivian Franck:

Yeah, well, it was the time of the Depression. I was born in 31, but we didn't feel it too much, my family, because my father had a grocery store and so we never lacked a food. But I saw the kind heartedness of my father because he never refused anybody who couldn't pay. And then my older brother joined the Marines and there were no More young men in town. So my father gathered the children together, and he said, which one of you would like to work with me at the store? I raised my hand right away because I had a good relationship with him. And so it was pleasant, but it was very, very hard. And those days, there was no. Nobody knew about. You shouldn't really how to bend to lift up things. And all this. I developed some physical problems, which I found out later on probably stemmed from there. So. But all in all, I had a pretty normal adolescence because there were boys. We had the boys school, high school, and the girls and the priests were teaching at the boys school, but they had a dance once a month, so that was good. And then we were group of boys and girls that played together. So I never had a boyfriend, but I had fun. It was fun, and it was relaxed. It was a nice place to live, and so a nice place to grow up. It was easy in some ways. I had restrictions from both the church and the school and the home and the neighbors who kept a strict eye on. On the children. And if they saw you talking to a boy, your mother would know about it. So that's the way it was.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And at the time that you were growing up, is it true that generally the way that if you were a girl, you could get married or you could go on and become a teacher or a nurse?

Vivian Franck:

Yes, that was about it.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Or a nun.

Vivian Franck:

That's it. That was about it. Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And so you decided to become a nun in part because you had this early realization that you were connected spiritually to some higher gift to God.

Vivian Franck:

Yes. And so at 14, I made up my mind, you know, I had to make a decision. Was I going to go through with this, with what my mother wanted? And I said yes, you know, and I intended to join the same community that Therese was in. But thankfully, they said no, because it would have been. It would not have been my type.

Kate Braestrup:

Really?

Vivian Franck:

Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I was really interested to read about this because you. Part of your journey was seeking the right community, the right spiritual community to

Vivian Franck:

be a part of it. Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you went actually between the United States and also Canada.

Vivian Franck:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you were working with different orders along the way.

Vivian Franck:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

Vivian Franck:

Yeah. I was very, very grateful to my original community who allowed me to search. I think they realized at some point that I was searching and that I needed to find something else. And they had no answer for me. But they let me go to these different types of community, like the one in Gloucester, Massachusetts, which was a five week period of nuns from different communities living together, seeing how they could live a deeper contemplative life together. All of these experiences were so beautiful. And the one in Canada and Ontario opened my eyes to a lot of things. And I realized there that even though the head of the community there, they were not nuns. But boy, she was strict. And I said, no, I don't need that. So then came the time when in my search, I realized that I had to leave the convent. And they were open to that. I think they were kind of relieved in a way because I was searching and. And, you know, and I hadn't found what I needed. So I went to a stricter community contemplative monastery. And that's where I woke up one night. And I knew, I just knew it was time for me to move on and to move out. During those whole 30 years, every once in a while I would get the strong feeling that I didn't belong there, but I had to wait for the right time. I just didn't know it would take 30 years.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And why do you think that it was that night that you woke up and that was the time?

Vivian Franck:

Yes, it was very clear. It was somebody, some psychic said somebody came to you. I was not aware, it was just so profoundly deep that this was the time to do it. And when I went to the prioress the next morning, in order to. That I wouldn't back down, I went to her to let her know. It was like, you know, this was meant to be and was fine with her and with the other sisters. And it was just, I was being led and I followed through and everything fell into place.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

You also experience some interesting church history as you were spending 30 years as a nun. Because during the time that you were doing this, Vatican II came along.

Vivian Franck:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And really changed the landscape of the church.

Vivian Franck:

Yes, we were very hopeful. It happened, I think probably in my late 30s, early 40s. And we were just, you know, and the community had decided on a few changes. Like, you know, we were given $25 a month so we could buy our toiletries and stuff like that. And the habit was modified so that it went only down to the cads. And the headdress was much lighter, but there was not much more that was done after that. They were reluctant to give too much freedom to the nuns. And most of the nuns accepted that. I did not.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, you also commented that one of the things that was challenging for you as a nun was the priests. The men were typically the ones that actually created the rules. And the structure for the women, for the nuns.

Vivian Franck:

Yes.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And that didn't really work that well for you.

Vivian Franck:

No. Well, that was, you know, that had always been the case through the centuries. The priests, the men were always the ones who regulated the nuns lives. The nuns had nothing to say with it about, you know, book of rules and so on. It was all. And so it was just, you know, it just added to my, you know, to my resolve that this was not right. It was not the way I wanted to live the rest of my life. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And even as a nun, there weren't that many different choices for you. There was. You could be a teacher, which was what you did become. You became a teacher, or you could be a nurse, or you could be a contemplative. And beyond that.

Vivian Franck:

Yeah, I did work with the children, the emotionally disturbed children, which I loved. You know, that was such a. To be with children was so wonderful for me. And then I did get involved with the charismatic movement with a nun from another community where we started after school for the kids and thrift store and all that. That didn't pan out. It fell through. But. And then I. And then when that fell through,

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

they

Vivian Franck:

didn't have a job for me in the community. So I had to look for a job, which was first time I'd ever done that and found something up north in my home territory. And I had a wonderful two years there. And it's from there that I met one of the sisters from the Daughters of Wisdom, which I went to. They were in New York and talked with her. And my community was very open. They just accepted it. So that was good.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I was struck by that, that you spent all of these decades as a nun and when it came time for you to leave, they gave you

Vivian Franck:

their blessing because I think they sensed that I was not content. There was some dissatisfaction in that life for me and I needed more freedom, I needed to look elsewhere. And that's why they allowed me to. And when it came time, it was after Vatican ii, so the rules had relaxed, so all I had to do when they asked me to write, you know, I had to get in contact with Rome and all of this why I was leaving the convent. And I started by saying When I was 8 years old, my mother had me promise to become a nun. That's all I needed to say, that was enough. I didn't go into too many details. And they were good to me, you know, and you know, they were supportive. I was very, very pleased. Like, you know, when the work that I was Led to after I left, which I had no idea this was going to. How things were going to happen because I had no money, I had no idea where I was going, what I was going to do. And I knew my family was not going to support me. So I told the Lord, you know, you better take care of me. That's it. And he has.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you end up in Portland initially. And now you live in South Portland.

Vivian Franck:

Yeah, Right. So I went to Dear Isle to take the massage course, met people from Portland. They loved my work and they helped me here. So I always had lots of help from the lay people. And they just kind of were motherly and lovely and caring for me because I was so green. Oh, my God.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, that must have been interesting that you were a fully grown adult when you came out into the world, but you really didn't know anything of the real world at all.

Vivian Franck:

It was like starting light again at 8. And I was 50 and in a big city. I mean, Van Buren was a very small town. So, you know, the first year, I remember thinking, you know, I can't wait for this year to be over, so it's not going to be completely new. I'll have some, you know. But people were very supportive. And, you know, even though it was difficult, I mean, even to open a checking account, I didn't have any id. One of the people at the center, the holistic center where I was working from, came to the bank with me and spoke up for me. So I was able to open a checking account. This was all, wow, this is bizarre. I can't even open a checking account. It was so very different.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And you were able to take some coursework because even though you left with nothing or not much money, they eventually did give you something.

Vivian Franck:

They gave me, the nuns gave me $1,000 and they said, don't touch it. And that's what I did. I just, you know, I put it in savings and then mutual. I don't remember if it was mutual funds first or. I forget. And then six years after I left, well, four years after I left, I changed to. Somebody spoke to me about Al Williams, who was a mutual fund company, and he advised me to change and go with them. And I was. It was like 15 or 18% interest in those days. Wasn't that great. And by the time it came to buy my house, I had had grown to $10,000. So, you know, and I saw the guy after I took it out and he said, that was like 1987. And he said, if you had not taken it out, you would have lost everything. So God was really taking care of me, Lisa. It was really every step of the way.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

And where did you get the money for the massage course that you took?

Vivian Franck:

Oh, before taking the course, I wrote to the provincial in my original community and just mentioned how much it cost and I didn't ask for it. And then I had a dream that night that I was getting that same, that amount in a check and it arrived the next day. So they were very, very good to me. Yeah. And so it's interesting because some of the nuns around have read my book and were very, you know, they just didn't know. Nobody knew what I experienced because there was just no way I could talk about it. And I only talked about my spiritual experiences. When I left, when I met some people at the holistic center who were very open, so it was easier for me to talk to them. So it was interesting because people accepted it, you know, it was like, no big deal. You had this beautiful, wonderful, mystical experience and that's fine.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I like the fact that you didn't have to be within the religious order to have a spiritual experience. And in fact, your whole life was filled in very practical ways with spiritual experiences.

Vivian Franck:

Yes, they were. Yes, it was.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

So you spent time within a church in a very structured way and then outside of a church in a very different and not as structured way. But either way, you still have felt this presence in your life.

Vivian Franck:

Well, yes, more and more so too, which is, you know, I'm always learning, I'm always becoming. You know, if you go to my website, I feel like, oh, I shouldn't have finished writing the book because I'm getting all these insights and these new revelations, like, oh, well, I can put them on my blog and some people read them.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, maybe you have a second book in you.

Vivian Franck:

Well, I don't know if I'll go for that. It was a wonderful experience. But right now it's, it's, you know, I don't think I'll ever come out of how much money it took, you know, and how I don't think it'll ever come back. So I'm not ready to, you know, I think I can get, sell the books. I'm going to be doing some readings and eventually, you know, but the company's always after me to buy a hundred books. No, no more. I've done it. You know, I got about 275 and I still have about 75 left. That's pretty good.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

Well, I'm guessing that there are People who are listening who will want to read your book and to learn more about your experiences. You said you have a website. Can you tell us what that is?

Vivian Franck:

Www.vivianfrank.com well, people should read this book

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

because I enjoyed reading it and I really. I enjoyed how honest you were about the struggle that this was to go through, because it was something. You've made a series of somewhat difficult decisions over the course of your life to get to this happy place that you are now where you continued to become, and to know that there is this presence in your life. But this didn't come easily.

Vivian Franck:

No. No, it didn't. No. Because I have four planets in Virgo, so that's pretty hard. It's not easy. And then I have a cancer moon, so that's, you know, the deep feelings and everything, and a Leo rising. So this quite a combination. It's been fun.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

I love that you are a former nun and also a fan of the

Vivian Franck:

stars to be exposed to Eastern mysticism. I didn't know what was happening with me when some of these experiences I. I had, even as a nun. What does this mean? You know, this is not part of my Catholic faith at all. What do I do with it? That was the big thing always, you know, and then it became very clear. It's like, yeah, there's a melding of both. Both are right and both are from God. And so somehow, you know, sometimes, you know, I feel that the mystical part, I'm understanding better because it's become more common for people to look at what the Buddhists are doing. And they were. Anyway, I don't know how they are now because they get stuck also, just like any other religion. But the idea of that, this is all illusion. And so therefore, your thoughts, your feelings, your experiences, your perceptions, they all pass away. So isn't it great to know that you can look at that from here, from consciousness, and say, oh, yeah, that's not me. I don't need that. So it's a great way to live. I'm very thankful.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

We've been speaking with Vivian Frank, who is the author of Forever Becoming. I really give you so much credit, and I thank you for the work that you have done to bring your book and this kind of knowledge into the world.

Vivian Franck:

Thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity, Lisa. I'm very grateful.

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

have been listening to Love Maine radio show number 224, Wellness from Within. Our guests have included Kate Braestrup and Vivian Frank.

Vivian Franck:

For a preview of each week's show,

Dr. Lisa Belisle:

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